General H-game design discussion

[YummyTiger]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Now come the the strong points:

- The game is not too H oriented and tries to tell a compelling story
- The CGs and H scenes are rather long and try to be a bit different
- The characters are designed relatively nicely and if you try, you will start to feel for them

Up to this point, one would expect that this game will outperform most games. But now comes the weird part (this is all just personal preference ofcourse):

The moment I started to feel for the female protagonist, I tried try to avoid nearly every H (since 90% is rape with her feeling miserable about her husband). At some point, I just stopped playing a good game because i didnt want to bond with characters who get raped. There is no fun to be had there (at least for me).

Interesting discussion, and I know what you mean Jemand69. I also tend to get attached to characters and ultimately avoid rape situations in some games. Okay, maybe I lose battles to still see the scenes, but the other scenes tend me be more erotic for me. The protagonist gets tricked into showing her breasts? Great. Or she reluctantly agrees to give a guy a bj? Perfect.

This is completely opinion, but I think this is when reluctant type situations can really shine. You care about the character, but she is still hot, and seeing her reluctantly agree to some (and possibly end up enjoying it) could work.

Still, options always win out, and the more paths a designer incorporates the better. That also makes it more costly though. It is one damn fine line to follow.

 

[Nellis]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Very good answers. I often considered Game Over Rape (GOR) games having a lot of problems mentioned here in this thread.

An important point is that there isn't much of a market outside of japan, period. It's easy to forget the mountains of innocuous romance-flavored VNs that have been released for decades over there. Bonetown is a GTA parody filtered through the lens of the 80's porn industry - It's quite possibly the scuzziest game ever made. If that's our moral high ground, perhaps the connections between video game mechanics and violence is simply intractable after all.

To put it out there, what I really hate is when Japanese studios slip in ero-game mechanics into mainstream games and then act all coy about it. Shit like Akiba's Trip, or Witch Toucher released for the DS with the Nintendo Seal of Approval™ creep me out. At least the games posted here know fully well what they are. (actually I can't think of a context in which Witch Toucher wouldn't creep me out wtf)

But as for the 'submissive' gamers playing these games... Eh, maybe. I believe this is based on a misunderstanding of BDSM as there is a lack of 'trust' in GOR games. BDSM is a role-playing lifestyle, where a submissive willingly gives up their time and skills to a person to have control over them. It's a lot like work, where a boss takes up your time and skill to compensate you for income. BDSM just takes that same concept and apply it to sex -- but there is still a large deal of consent between a dominant and submissive. GOR games don't provide any chance to 'trust' the NPCs going after your avatar. Quite the opposite really as these are the hostile forces. The player is expected to fight off all rapists in order to gain points/XP/Gold/Progress, which is NOT what a submissive would do with a dominant they trust. I do agree with you that there are some male submissives (I consider myself one), but I don't trust a goblin looking to get between my female protagonist's legs. Plus, most of the GOR games have a lot of female protagonists compared to male protagonists, which makes me suspect the 'humiliation of women' fetish is still found in this genre.

They're both ultimately based in fantasy. It's right there in the titles - BDSM Role-Play. Role-Playing Game. I heard this a lot recently regarding Fifty Shades of Grey and I've never fully understood the argument - Yeah it's badly written, it reads like a parody of romance novels, it's twilight fanfiction, whatever, but I don't think we can go all no-true-scotsman on it for depicting what would be an abusive relationship in real life, it's still BDSM with the book itself engrossing the reader and the fantasy. Maybe it's huge success gives people the wrong idea about how BDSM should play out IRL, but is that really something we can blame on just some smutty fanfiction?

 

[Drakeero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I am somewhat familiar with the BDSM community. I know a few people who are very much involved with play parties and do get invites to attend though I myself have not yet had the opportunity to get deeply involved.

The discussion about the trust, the arrangements set up beforehand, how the domination/submission is usually roleplay rather than "real" is true. There's also a lot of consequences in real life that need to be handled in a responsible manner. Since games are fantasy, they can go well beyond anything real life BDSM communities would tolerate - so the structures and mannerisms of real life BDSM would probably not be as applicable to the structure of relations in rape orientated h-games.

Though, there are an awful lot of people with submissive tendencies. They're not statistically minor or easy to overlook. And there's an awful lot of "switch" preferences as well.

The stigma of VR as perpetrating rape does make sense that it would give quite a bit of the wrong impression. Games where you're trying to avoid being the one raped (especially if the protagonist is male) does take advantage of some of the loopholes and double-standards in the topic. I never considered the possible moral and stigma aspects of VR vs GoR because I personally just found VR incredibly boring and uninteresting so I tend not to think too much about it.

 

[afa]

Re: General H-game design discussion

But even with all the issues with GoR player decision vs h content. I think I still much prefer a GoR style game than a VR.
And I do find the whole humiliating the main character enticing, I think the key lies in for the experience to be worthwhile and impactful it has to be against a character that has been developed. Having the main character take up that slot is the easiest way to do it. It also give the player visual feedback all throughout the game since the character is always present.

 

[Shadowgungc]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I find that a lot of this topic is really coming down to how a game implements its H content and H features and personal taste.

On that note. you know what's and H-game mechanic I've never seen? the amount of damage you take while being raped increasing every time the enemy raping you cums. If balanced right it it would let people enough some fap fodder without hindering the game play to much; while still letting people who like to watch the Hp. tick down and the whole game over defeated thing enjoy every enemy no matter how far they get into the game.

Ps. please forgive me I'm high as a weather balloon

 

[freeko]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Isnt that what the gallery is for? I see more and more "galleries" in games so that you dont have to waste your time "losing" to every enemy in the game. You just go through the game as normal, and then have your fapfest in the gallery after the fact.

Not sure how I personally feel about it, since on one level it seems like taking the easy way out, but on the other hand it allows me to enjoy what I want from the game without and of the other stuff that might get in the way.

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

you still usually have to unlock them depending on the game format, people liked the purchase to unlock thing in the vita game, because it made them replay the game, but i felt that was an artificial method and cheat engined for credits instead

 

[freeko]

Re: General H-game design discussion

What I was going at was something like, Parasite in City or Shinobi/Witch/Angel Girl, where the gameplay was basically to avoid being raped, though the actual reason for the game was to get the character raped it felt like.

So you would unlock the gallery version of whatever it was at the end of the game so you would be able to gawk at the animation for as long as you wanted to without having to worry about minor details like losing all your hp. Like in those situations, it works rather well. You can focus on finishing the game and then having the character get raped any which way you can just about think of after the fact in the gallery.

Then there are other games that have unlockable galleries like Iris Action and games from arumero soft, creature hunter I think the last one was called. Where you beat the game and only have whatever items in the gallery that you had done to your characters during the gameplay. Which then gives you an awkward situation where you have to go out of your way to create very specific situations to unlock that one cg you are missing. While both are great games it just feels that they could have handled the gallery differently, as the artificial replay value gained by having someone unlock the gallery as well as simply beat the game seems to only lead to frustration for me.

I could go into more examples of how things should not be handled at all, like Arms Devicer+, but they are not worth wasting my time talking about how inherently flawed the system is in those types of games where you have to go around and repeatedly lose to the most simple monsters just to unlock the galleries. This is tedious, and should hopefully never be done again in a game.

 

[Hikikomori Gamer]

Re: General H-game design discussion

The easy way to fix NTR games? Just remove the story and add more raping where there would have instead been useless things like story getting in the way.

Well without context and story to get you hooked into NTR game... you don't really have that NTR effect.

That said, Netorare is a no thank you from me.

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Well without context and story to get you hooked into NTR game... you don't really have that NTR effect.

That said, Netorare is a no thank you from me.

I think what he was trying to say was to fix the NTR game take out the NTR.

 

[Hikikomori Gamer]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I think what he was trying to say was to fix the NTR game take out the NTR.

Oh lol, that's a pretty funny joke then.

 

[freeko]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I think what he was trying to say was to fix the NTR game take out the NTR.

In an ever so subtle and roundabout way... maybe.. just maybe...

NTR games for what little my opinion matters, would be so much better if they were not NTR games and just focused on the hentai instead of wasting time and effort on story crap no one really cares about, or ends up having people stop playing the game in some instances.

On a more serious side, how many people play hentai games for story? I want porn, not things like a story getting in the way of said porn, if I am playing a hentai game.

I think it boils down to that old addage that listed 3 elements. Those 3 elements being: Good, Hentai, Game. Oh, and generally speaking you get to pick 2 of the three only as when you try to mix in the third element as well it all just turns into an unmitigated distaster alot more often than not.

So I would gladly sacrifice the game part of the NTR genre to have me some good hentai instead. If it means that the whole NTR part is what gets removed, oh well.

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

it sounded like he was saying make the heroine less empathetic, the less you feel sorry for them the more you can enjoy it

my issue with ntr sounds oddly feminist, though in a way all games with game over rape could be ntr if you thought of yourself as the person stopping the mc from getting raped instead of the MC herselef... but anyway, my issue is mostly that it focuses on the person being "stolen" from more than the heroine herself

 

[karmapowered]

Re: General H-game design discussion

As much as it pains me to admit :

gameplay >>> everything else

This remains valid for H-RPGs. I say this while I highly value immersive stories, engaging character development and, of course, gorgeous/sexy art.

Next, never underestimate the variety of people's fetishes, and motivations in playing "adult" games. I usually enjoy a near-"virgin" run more (with a slight corruption here and there, when the story/environment or my current mood warrants it) than a marathon which has the hero/heroine bumping from bukkake scene to the next gangbag scene within minutes. If I want a quick fap, I just run her into troubles, and forget to save. Ergo, gameplay remains King.

Games with dumb/unlikeable heros/heroines get ignored by me nowadays. This includes the majority of NTR games in which the hero watches his woman getting screwed by strangers without any kind of (sensible) reaction or emotion, and also the vast majority of "CG slideshows" disguised as H-RPGs, usually inflated with painfully slow and repetitive 3D-animations or useless voice-acting, to sell the game for more €€€/$$$.

As the Hongfire thread (linked by Habisain) stated, H-RPGs are still very much in their infancy stage. I can only agree with that.

While Nukige and co probably won't evolve much more, except being consumed through Oculus or Google glasses in the future, there's alot that could be done to improve more feature-rich games like H-RPGs, starting with appealing to an adult public that is wider than a couple of nerds and otakus (relatively speaking). I dare anyone to play Sociolotron once in their life (a game which is a MMO and now unfortunately heavily outdated graphics-wise), and contest that it can be done.

A cocktail of "Sims 17 + Artificial Academy 5" anyone ?

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: General H-game design discussion

In an ever so subtle and roundabout way... maybe.. just maybe...

NTR games for what little my opinion matters, would be so much better if they were not NTR games and just focused on the hentai instead of wasting time and effort on story crap no one really cares about, or ends up having people stop playing the game in some instances.

On a more serious side, how many people play hentai games for story? I want porn, not things like a story getting in the way of said porn, if I am playing a hentai game.

I think it boils down to that old addage that listed 3 elements. Those 3 elements being: Good, Hentai, Game. Oh, and generally speaking you get to pick 2 of the three only as when you try to mix in the third element as well it all just turns into an unmitigated distaster alot more often than not.

So I would gladly sacrifice the game part of the NTR genre to have me some good hentai instead. If it means that the whole NTR part is what gets removed, oh well.

Sounds like you just want a CG set. I'm not saying I go to hentai games when I'm in the mood for a good compelling story. I go to anime, manga, and movies for that, however; I still want a NOT BAD story when I play my eroge. That's why I loved JSK's game to the point where I wanted to translate them.

Let's take MGQ for instance. I like the adult scenes(they feel sexier) more in that with the text than w/o.

Also, NTR is a fetish that some people... actually like. They exist so games for them exist too.

 

[freeko]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I speak only for myself. So i offer my own opinion on things, and people are free to disagree with it. Someone who actually likes an NTR game is not wrong, I just think they are. It all comes down to point of view. I am expressing mine.

There are certain things that I absolutely hate in hentai games, and other people enjoy those exact same things. Any one who knows me would be able to think of at least one element right off the bat that is 100% turn off for me to the point that I will not even look at the game a second time once I realize that element is in the game.

See I kind of like the games where your character get gradually closer and closer to getting raped by seeing their clothing/armor get damaged and then destroyed throughout the journey. The actual game is whatever at that point since it panders to the things I want to see in a game, so I would give that game alot more leeway as to if it were actually good or not compared to a game that does not include said gameplay element.

There is always the factor of, what does the player like and does the specific game match up to what the player likes. As I mentioned before, the clothing destruction elements of a game like Shinobi girl are rather lacking, where the first "hit" you take removes your clothes. Where as Witch girl has a different mechanic that the monsters sometimes attack you with a projectile of some kind and you lose a piece of clothing at random when you are hit by that attack though are always needing to be aware of the possibility of being raped if a monster touches you no matter how much clothing you have left on.

Are either of these games bad? Not in my opinion, but they certainly have different ways of delivering what amounts to the same gameplay experience.

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

i know how you can fix NTR, turn all the male characters into futas

 

[Drakeero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Story in H-games has come up pretty big time. I dunno if I mentioned this before but I think I noticed two directions this wants to go in.

1: Games that are more or less full games with perfectly capable stand alone plots but do throw in adult "scenes" here and there where reasonable and inbetween them is a rich narrative of wars, betrayals, invasions, whatever.

2: Games that throw sex at you. Even if you manage a virgin run, its certainly not from lack of the enemies trying. If you screw up its gang-bang to gang-bang. Some of these games may actually have some pretty interesting design and plot ideas - enough to mimic a good metroidvania, but generally not what you'd expect from a JRPG. Others are more or less CG sets with varying qualities of gameplay and a "story" about as epic as the original Doom's instruction manual.

That said, I have a question for you guys. If I were to try to make a naughty game (no promises, I have a lot of missing skills to develop) I would probably put some effort on the plot because I'm like that. How would you recommend implementing it? How could it be implemented so its accessible to those who would care about a plot? How could it be partially or mostly bypassed for those who could care less without actually penalizing them? (So no 100% completion and all cutscenes to get the "best" ending junk. I'm not against people asking for save games because they don't want to do all the gopher hunts and challenges themselves - but I wouldn't want the majority of my players motivated to do that because my game ends up designed like crap.)

 

[memkmemk]

Re: General H-game design discussion

On a more serious side, how many people play hentai games for story? I want porn, not things like a story getting in the way of said porn, if I am playing a hentai game.

Jesus: This movie is very low quality.
Ray Bob: Don't look that bad to me.
Jesus: There's no story.
Bucky: It's a fuck movie. I don't watch a fuck movie for the story. I watch a fuck movie to see fuckin'.
C.W.: I got to side with Jesus on this one. I personally appreciate an attempt at telling a story. When I care more about the characters, I care more about the fuckin'.
— From Dusk Till Dawn 2: Texas Blood Money

gameplay >>> everything else

Hum... I do think a "H-Game" should have no priority on H-Content and gameplay and (if exist) story. I mean, for a good H-Game, the H-Content IS part of the gameplay and gameplay IS part of the H-content vice versa. The h-content should enhance the gameplay and the gameplay should enhance the H-content. Like you wont make a platformer with very good story but no platform at all, then call that a good platformer right? Same with H-Game.

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Jesus: This movie is very low quality.
Ray Bob: Don't look that bad to me.
Jesus: There's no story.
Bucky: It's a fuck movie. I don't watch a fuck movie for the story. I watch a fuck movie to see fuckin'.
C.W.: I got to side with Jesus on this one. I personally appreciate an attempt at telling a story. When I care more about the characters, I care more about the fuckin'.
— From Dusk Till Dawn 2: Texas Blood Money

That quote makes it sound like those developers at least tried to have a story in it. If they at least tried, I'd like for it to be good instead of bad, it'd make the scenes feel more intimate instead of just... sex.

Also, you can take it a step back. "I don't watch a movie for the audio, I watch it for the moving pictures."

Hentai's pretty good all around. There's a lot of high quality art out there and the main differentiators in eroge are definitely the plot and gameplay. In the end though, it's all a matter of taste and values. I'd like an eroge to have good ero, good gameplay, and good plot in that order. If an eroge has good ero(ALL SUBJECTIVE), good gameplay(can be objective), bad plot(can be objective)... I wont like it as much as a game with good ero, ok gameplay, and good plot.

Hum... I do think a "H-Game" should have no priority on H-Content and gameplay and (if exist) story. I mean, for a good H-Game, the H-Content IS part of the gameplay and gameplay IS part of the H-content vice versa. The h-content should enhance the gameplay and the gameplay should enhance the H-content. Like you wont make a platformer with very good story but no platform at all, then call that a good platformer right? Same with H-Game.

I disagree. Just because the medium is hentai that doesn't mean EVERYTHING in it has to be hentai. A hentai game doesn't need a perverted protagonist whose life revolves around sex, or have gameplay elements pertaining to the sex. It just needs to have sex. I'd personally like there to be a lot of sex but not so much that it stifles the people in the world, the world itself, and permeates the gameplay. That's... a saturation of sex.