General H-game design discussion

[an anonymous]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Is it BF if only the monster uses the BF moves, because that would make MGQ BF.

nah if the mc does not use bf skills (joust the enemies) it's not a bf game just a gor game.
mgq is a shota gor h game thad´s for sure,

Wil from Kamidori, is a diligent, intelligent character. If he attacked his enemies by fingering or dicking them, I'd value him less as a character.

talking about kamedori i do have a idea how to make it a bf parodie.

first turn wils personality in to a horny pervert, with the dream to be the biggest pimp and porn producer in the world

then turn kamedorie (the sity) in to a porn town (alias bone town or amsterdam)
where pimps ruling the town, so the alchemist guild is a big porn company,
the church praised sex, the pub turns into a nightclub
(wiht hot gogos and stripers of course) and i think its clear what happens to the arena and that horny owner
the friend of wil (forget his name) also turns into a pimp,
the palace turns in to the company hq and that silver haired milf in to a horni bitch,
and of course all the monsters turn into monster girls(like in robf)
and only fight bf style.

the score in that parody would be to build a brothel including sex store and factory (to make,invent,) new sex toys as weapons and panties as armor, also potions and inventory stuff to,
improving all skills upgrading the brothel,store edc
training captured monster girls to hookers,
and becoming the biggest pimp of kamidori

the story lines would be pretty much the same just more pervert dialogue,
and none stop bf

if someone ever make a parody game like this i would play it every day
(or even buy it)

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: General H-game design discussion

nah if the mc does not use bf skills (joust the enemies) it's not a bf game just a gor game.
mgq is a shota gor h game thad´s for sure,

talking about kamedori i do have a idea how to make it a bf parodie.
...
if someone ever make a parody game like this i would play it every day
(or even buy it)

Sex permeates literally everything in that game, and I don't think I could honestly like any single person in that entire game. I'm not sure if I'd like it.

Actually... No, I'm 100% sure I'd like the original more.

 

[Drakeero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I think that brings up other interesting points in the game design.

Just how much is sex a part of everything? Admittedly I thought I liked my h-games sex heavy (because if I wanted to play a regular game I'd go grab something from the Steam Store) but it turns out I was limiting myself to just the nature of conflict with the antagonists.

I wasn't thinking of sex permeating the entire culture turning the land in a basically a gigantic Pimptopia. That's a new one for me. I now realize that liking the plot and combat sex-heavy isn't the same as wanting the whole SETTING sex heavy. (The most sex-heavy setting I've seen (and like) are a bunch of succubi and monster-girls claiming their own island as their 'country' and opening up vacation resorts with a no-kill policy. However this falls apart when a monster goes counter-brainwashing the succubi and reverting them back to their lethal ways and its up to the chaste hero to remain chaste as he attempts to stop the monster and save the succubi and the humans.)

Oh yeah, that previous example would then be GoR rather than BF because the protagonist is chaste (or doesn't exactly live for much longer if he gets caught).

I think I need to reconsider my own preferences. I guess I don't like BF that much, I more prefer the GoR (preferably with in-combat h-animations rather than a game-over CG).



On the other hand of the spectrum though, there are people who don't want the world to be so full of sex. They don't want -all- the enemies to be monstergirls or the like. I can understand this as well but I would think of them more as a traditional game that includes sexual content as a sensible part of the plot. (The 'liberties' taken with 'sensible' would be up to interpretation but irregardless of where the line is drawn - you're not playing those games for the h-content anymore. You're playing more for the story and enjoying the h-content along the way).

I think this aspect of game design somewhat sorts itself out nicely. Not all things will mix well at 50/50. Some games are stories with sex, others are sex with stories. Both types of games are being produced and enjoyed - so things seem pretty good on that front.


One area I think might need some reconsideration by any developers is the nature and distribution of the h-content. It's somewhat normal for games to provide better rewards the further along in the play. In GoR this tends to lead to alot of very vanilla foreplay in the beginning of the game (unless they intentionally throw in an attention getter for the first boss) and starts to transition to more nudity and hardcore sex for late-game GoRs.

I complain about the use of "foreplay" techniques and expecting them to have the same 'effect' on the subdued protagonist as something a bit naughtier. Think of the games you've played with female protagonists that don't even have penetration until over halfway through the game or sometimes never? (excluding guro/ryona because those genres have different expectations of them entirely)

Thank you Titan (and others) on the MoGi: Origins by actually having the first few monster girls use actual sex rather than knees, elbows, or their feet or something.

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I think that brings up other interesting points in the game design.

Just how much is sex a part of everything? Admittedly I thought I liked my h-games sex heavy (because if I wanted to play a regular game I'd go grab something from the Steam Store) but it turns out I was limiting myself to just the nature of conflict with the antagonists.

I wasn't thinking of sex permeating the entire culture turning the land in a basically a gigantic Pimptopia. That's a new one for me. I now realize that liking the plot and combat sex-heavy isn't the same as wanting the whole SETTING sex heavy.

...

Spoiler

I personally like actual intercourse waaaaaaaay more than foreplay. If it were up to me 99% of the game would be that way... however; it wasn't. I think I'm a minority because we got a good number of foreplay requests. Either way, Veins and I control the bosses and I really dont want any foreplay there.

This is the main focus of the discussion. I think it all goes back to taste in the end.

For instance, the idea of a nukige is a game that throws sex at you left and right. Nukige normally have pretty long development times as well, and they sell pretty well(close to normal vns). The difference between a nukige and an 18+ visual novel though is the characters(and sex amount). Nukige normally have very stereotypical face-value characters that have personalities matching their voice acting, and just... dont have a good story. Softhouse Seal's work are Nukige. The adult content is fabulous(including audio), and I go to them for that, but I dont expect anymore. Sometimes, I do want a nukige. Those times, I'll get savedata from sagaoz and just look at the CG. Sometimes, I want an 18+ visual novel. Those times, I'll want to complete the game on my own.

I value the 18+ visual novels so much more however.

To me. An adult game is fine, as long as the adult content is still a predominant aspect of the game.

I guess for me in order of importance:

1. I want it to be fun
2. I want there to be sex(that I like... I wished I liked tentacles and gangrape... sadly... i do not.)
3. I want to like the protagonist

That last one is hard to do so it's my least important, but I didn't like Erotic Eater too much bc I didn't like the protagonist... at all... and she got a happy ending.

 

[Drakeero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

So it seems that overall the range of people's tastes is more or less taken care of (just everybody wants to see all areas full of more content).

As for design itself - it is different from traditional games. The normal genres and patterns may not address the inherent difficulties of balancing the two aspects of gameplay, but if the game does well in all the other areas valuable to its target audience than it comes across as a very enjoyable gem even with the inherent imbalances.

It also looks like the h-game field is growing more rapidly. May not be "easy" or "reliable" yet for indie or even commercial developers but the numbers of attempts and numbers of successes are on the rise. Larger projects are coming together.

Perhaps over time there will be more room for innovation and we can start getting more experimental games.

 

[demilupo]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Can we get a quick glossary?
I know RoR is "Run or Rape" and GoR is "Game Over Rape", but what is VR and BF?

 

[Drakeero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Can we get a quick glossary?
I know RoR is "Run or Rape" and GoR is "Game Over Rape", but what is VR and BF?

VR is Victory Rape. You beat a boss, you get to rape him/her/it. Or you beat the monster, the obligatory thanks from the princess is paizuri. Stuff like that if I understand it correctly. Probably also includes monster girls that don't attempt to rape you, just flat-out murder you. If you beat them however, you rape them, and then they join your party or something. I've seen that mechanic a few times.

BF is battle fuck. Sex replaces combat entirely. Both partners are trying to get the other to climax first. Pleasure replaces HP and instead of KO you generally have an orgasm with... varying consequences. BF by its very nature almost always includes GoR if you lose, and may or may not include VR if you win. (sometimes the hero is too nice or the consequences of their own orgasm are too high to partake in VR)

 

[an anonymous]

Re: General H-game design discussion

BF is battle fuck. Sex replaces combat entirely. Both partners are trying to get the other to climax first. Pleasure replaces HP and instead of KO you generally have an orgasm with... varying consequences. BF by its very nature almost always includes GoR if you lose, and may or may not include VR if you win. (sometimes the hero is too nice or the consequences of their own orgasm are too high to partake in VR)

couldn't explain it better bro

by the way h games like:
robf/s4u, erotical night, sucupus quest,incupus fantasy,

are best example for good bf,

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

couldn't explain it better bro

by the way h games like:
robf/s4u, erotical night, sucupus quest,incupus fantasy,

are best example for good bf,

hmmm

have we had a battle fuck game where it's just a husband and wife who are really competitive in the bedroom?

 

[an anonymous]

Re: General H-game design discussion

hmmm
have we had a battle fuck game where it's just a husband and wife who are really competitive in the bedroom?

if they fuck till one of them come first or passing out then this count as bf to.
there's actually no need to be enemies in bf because it's all about who comes first
like in that h game for example(its love story with bf)

You must be registered to see the links

or they could have just regular sex, (without caring about who comes first)
but that doesn't count as bf then (its logical isn't it)

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

if they fuck till one of them come first or passing out then this count as bf to.
there's actually no need to be enemies in bf because it's all about who comes first
like in that h game for example(its love story with bf)

You must be registered to see the links

or they could have just regular sex, (without caring about who comes first)
but that doesn't count as bf then (its logical isn't it)

Ladies vs Butlers sounds like BF from the name haha

 

[jemand69]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I will take this opportunity and also point out that specific game constellations, which by our defenition should be great, can turn out bad (at least for me). A relatively recent example is

You must be registered to see the links

.

In the game, you play a female protagonist and later on you can choose to take 1 out of 2 male sidekicks with you. One of them is your Husband to be, the other is some creepy guy who is friends with said husband.

Now come the the strong points:

- The game is not too H oriented and tries to tell a compelling story
- The CGs and H scenes are rather long and try to be a bit different
- The characters are designed relatively nicely and if you try, you will start to feel for them

Up to this point, one would expect that this game will outperform most games. But now comes the weird part (this is all just personal preference ofcourse):

The moment I started to feel for the female protagonist, I tried try to avoid nearly every H (since 90% is rape with her feeling miserable about her husband). At some point, I just stopped playing a good game because i didnt want to bond with characters who get raped. There is no fun to be had there (at least for me).

I know there are people who still enjoy the game, but my personal preference kept me from playing an otherwise great game. This would not have happened if the characters were not introduced as in-depth or the protagonist was a bit more unlikeable. On the other hand, the people who liked the game as-is would have had their problems with a shallow character introduction or an unlikeable protagonist.

 

[TitanAnteus]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I will take this opportunity and also point out that specific game constellations, which by our defenition should be great, can turn out bad (at least for me). A relatively recent example is

You must be registered to see the links

.

In the game, you play a female protagonist and later on you can choose to take 1 out of 2 male sidekicks with you. One of them is your Husband to be, the other is some creepy guy who is friends with said husband.

Now come the the strong points:

- The game is not too H oriented and tries to tell a compelling story
- The CGs and H scenes are rather long and try to be a bit different
- The characters are designed relatively nicely and if you try, you will start to feel for them

Up to this point, one would expect that this game will outperform most games. But now comes the weird part (this is all just personal preference ofcourse):

The moment I started to feel for the female protagonist, I tried try to avoid nearly every H (since 90% is rape with her feeling miserable about her husband). At some point, I just stopped playing a good game because i didnt want to bond with characters who get raped. There is no fun to be had there (at least for me).

I know there are people who still enjoy the game, but my personal preference kept me from playing an otherwise great game. This would not have happened if the characters were not introduced as in-depth or the protagonist was a bit more unlikeable. On the other hand, the people who liked the game as-is would have had their problems with a shallow character introduction or an unlikeable protagonist.

You've just stumbled onto an NTR h-game.

 

[jemand69]

Re: General H-game design discussion

You've just stumbled onto an NTR h-game.

I know the genre, what im saying is the fact that there is no right or wrong with these things, as most of it is preference.

 

[freeko]

Re: General H-game design discussion

The easy way to fix NTR games? Just remove the story and add more raping where there would have instead been useless things like story getting in the way.

 

[Drakeero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

NTR is designed to be a variation of story-telling that hurts alot of people right in their feels like that.

In a way, it sounds like it did its job very well.


I have seen/heard of BF games (mostly those trying tried to avoid some of the more lethal consequences) that use the idea of a land where BF was treated like a sort of sport almost. "Loss" incurred anything from humiliation and a lower rank to being enslaved in a BDSM dungeon under the dominatrix you lost to. (were primarily male protagonist ones, didn't see one with a female protagonist).

It technically counts as BF and I think its softer for people who don't like the idea of dangerous ryona/reverse-ryona that show up pretty frequently.

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

NTR is designed to be a variation of story-telling that hurts alot of people right in their feels like that.

In a way, it sounds like it did its job very well.


I have seen/heard of BF games (mostly those trying tried to avoid some of the more lethal consequences) that use the idea of a land where BF was treated like a sort of sport almost. "Loss" incurred anything from humiliation and a lower rank to being enslaved in a BDSM dungeon under the dominatrix you lost to. (were primarily male protagonist ones, didn't see one with a female protagonist).

It technically counts as BF and I think its softer for people who don't like the idea of dangerous ryona/reverse-ryona that show up pretty frequently.

is it naki-ge? or are those the more heartbreaking ones like you fall in love then they die?

 

[Drakeero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I don't know about the Naki-ge, or the strange cluster-murderfucks that things like School Days become. (To be honest I haven't played those.)

Neotare I think is more your girl/waifu getting bonked by another guy (who can be either more manly/successful than you or some fucked up weirdo who forces the circumstances to his ends - like debt, political position, etc.)

Or the protagonist is... what comes after beta? Delta? Gamma? The protagonist is too gamma to do anything about his girl getting used like a welcome mat.

Not to be confused with swingers, menage-e-trois, or other set-ups where the multiple partners is consentual.

 

[azurezero]

Re: General H-game design discussion

I wasnt meaning school days, especially as its hard to like anyone in those... i mean like...clannad, if there was no time travel reverting the ending to happy, the games that make you really really love and adore a character, then utterly break them

 

[Silvar]

Re: General H-game design discussion

Very good answers. I often considered Game Over Rape (GOR) games having a lot of problems mentioned here in this thread.

Generally whenever the topic comes up the same point about h-games being "illogical" or "poorly designed" because you need to lose to see the content (as far as RoR, GoR, and BF are concerned) is brought up. Then there are the usual counter-arguments that its really up to the target audience whether they like it or not, etc. etc.

That's pretty much my main thesis on why I don't like GOR games as well. I'm a pervert and I like the idea of playing a game that lets me do perverted things. So why do hentai games with GOR content lock away the content I like. Mmore importantly, give the interpretation that the content I like is somehow 'evil' or 'wrong' and I should feel ashamed for liking it. Plus playing it while avoiding the termination conditions (i.e. game over) feels like I'm supposed to be celibate or demure. Like a porn film that is narrated by a shriveled nun talking directly towards the camera, for TWO hours, telling the audience why they should only engage in sexual intercourse once married.

1: While VR would make more sense, not everyone wants to be dominant. This introduces the RoR and GoR fields, and BF which is a bit more flexible overall. Keep in mind, some of the male protagonist GoR games are pretty popular too so this isn't just picking on girls. A lot of guys do like being on the receiving end of GoR or losing BF.

I have a theory on why games where victory leads to raping opponents (i.e. Victory Rape, or VR games) are rare compared to GOR ones. I heard that Japan is more 'comfortable' in sexually humiliating women than North American culture is (though I admit that I don't have any clear evidence supporting this, other than these games exist and word of mouth). Sure there are some games where a male protagonist is sexually humiliated -- the (pointlessly named) 'reverse rape' themes -- but there appears to be a lot of female protagonists just for the role of seeing them humiliated. Even non-VR games seems to have some idea of 'humiliating' or 'owning' girls. Visual Novels with 'dating simulation' themes tends to require the player spend a lot of their time to 'earn' the girl, with sex being the final reward. In other cases these games throw in the 'humiliation towards women' theme to just make progress. In the old Visual Novel "3 Sisters", the protagonist has to rape and humiliate a female guard towards the end to make progress in the game. So, there seems to be a lot of interest in humiliation towards women in Japanese erotic games.

I also think these games are VERY bad for business. Granted, erotic games is a very niche product. But one sniff of sexual discrimination by a group of easily offended people can attract the wrong attention. I hate to bring up a dead horse, but I believe this is why Illusion did not want to sell some of their VR-like games like "Rapelay" outside of Japan. The aftermath of the bootleg copy of "Rapelay" on Amazon.UK is a great example of how controversial this fetish is. So, while VR seems popular for dominating and humiliating women, they give the wrong interpretation on the audience that loves them (i.e. generalizing them as rapists) and can be a PR nightmare for any company making them -- even one as 'big' as Illusion.

GOR games seems to keep this fetish, but disguise it as being, well, 'rightous'. The avatar is in complete control of the player, so their fate is in the hand of the player. I heard some arguments defending GOR games state that some players like them because they would like to think they are protecting the girls from rapists -- which I can definitely see being valid. On the other hand, and I'm guilty of this as well, it is very easy for a player to make their avatar 'forget to block an attack' or 'run into bullets' to get intentionally knocked down, thus getting what they want (humiliating women). Men are still stereotyped as savage rapists in VR to GOR games, and there are still assets in a GOR game showing women in distress. You could say that VR games are only appealing towards dominants -- though I think GOR games are just as appealing towards people that like to jump straight to the rape.

Keep in mind that these hentai games being developed in Japan borrows a lot of their culture and values in their final product. I'm no expert on the Japanese culture and all of what I stated here is speculation. But excluding a few indie porn games (such as Kyieru's work), this 'humiiation of women' is pretty rare outside of Japanese porn. "Bonetown" is racist as it is humorous, however there is never any chance to 'rape' the women in that game.

But as for the 'submissive' gamers playing these games... Eh, maybe. I believe this is based on a misunderstanding of BDSM as there is a lack of 'trust' in GOR games. BDSM is a role-playing lifestyle, where a submissive willingly gives up their time and skills to a person to have control over them. It's a lot like work, where a boss takes up your time and skill to compensate you for income. BDSM just takes that same concept and apply it to sex -- but there is still a large deal of consent between a dominant and submissive. GOR games don't provide any chance to 'trust' the NPCs going after your avatar. Quite the opposite really as these are the hostile forces. The player is expected to fight off all rapists in order to gain points/XP/Gold/Progress, which is NOT what a submissive would do with a dominant they trust. I do agree with you that there are some male submissives (I consider myself one), but I don't trust a goblin looking to get between my female protagonist's legs. Plus, most of the GOR games have a lot of female protagonists compared to male protagonists, which makes me suspect the 'humiliation of women' fetish is still found in this genre.

The TL;DR: To me VR games seems to be popular in Japan due to a fascination towards humiliating women. GOR games shows a lot of strong evidence in still supporting this fetish, even though the protagonists are capable (at least in a balanced game) of fighting off all hostile forces. Plus a submissive, like me, is ONLY submissive towards a person I trust and grant them power over me. The mechanics and context of a GOR game does not give me any reason to be submissive towards the NPCs, but fight and avoid contact with them.