I agree with your first conclusions, and tactical strats for low level (new) players. However your dislike of rogues makes you under value them a bit more then you should, and an undue bias. But everyone's play styles will differ. At early levels it is important to experiment to find what is right for the player.
My rating for a low / mid level player is thus:
Princess>Rogue>Valkyrie>Bandit
Here's why:
At early levels a bandit is the most useless unit you can use, they attack too slowly for them to kill anything of value and why they have high attack, at early levels they are not two shotting anything and they become a hindrance until they are leveled, because so much gets past them and so much healing resources have to be devoted to them. If they are less then level 30, extreme care must be used in placing them.
For role purposes certain classes are going to be better at different things but also multiple things, these multi roles are even more important when you are new player, as you are not going to be brute forcing your way through anything.
--A rogue is also an anti rush unit as well as a duelist.
--Valkyrie are the second best "tank" to an HA you can get at early levels. They also serve the dual purpose of increasing UC to get bigger and better units out like those mages in a rush map.
@lafate
well i'm not expert on deciding what role with those tag that u give since i always look at these unit as individual.
I mean they have more to their own uniqueness on their own for example a defensive valk (ellaine) sometime i use them as replacement for my HA to tank a ranged enemy (don't have enuff cost to deploy HA).
regarding how you want to put tag on them, well i think its up to you since you the 1 coming up with this system. All im helping is giving info what these unit class capable to do, and what ppl usually use them for, whether they can be replaced with similar unit or not.
Ah... just like any tower defense game, the lack of cost and position of unit strategy is the major part . As for alchemist low atk arguement we already had discussion in jp thread there . At 1st i didn't know her atk is low too hence why i farmed her T_T
Well using a Valkyrie in place of a HA is just a tank not being needed. Not a Valkyrie being a tank. The Valkyrie is still a duelist they didn't just suddenly gain tank like stats.
Thanks for explaining, though my main point was how the Valkyrie is mainly irrelevant for people just starting out, I've been looking for decent starter guides a bit and most of them only talk about mid-late game, very little info on how to effectively build a starting army or which units to prioritize for leveling/CE.
All I've found so far is things like "don't use your silver units for CC!" which wasn't really intuitive as you'd think (early on) that one less UP and a better skill is worth the single silver unit you'd lose, especially when you get to a map like Remnant Vanquish 2, where every point at the start counts.
Also mages being incredibly valuable seems to be a worthwhile hint as your starting dudes aren't going to be taking many hits from heavy armor enemies and you need their firepower to take out the red gargoyles as well.
But yea, the question remains, what units should I be spending my early resources on? ;_;
Well 1, no it is not worth it even for Remnant Vanquish two. A map which if I remember right you are suppose to use bronze soldiers to beat. As a free player you end up hurting yourself if you try to CR early.
You don't need mages to deal with Red gargoyles or heavy armors as witches can deal with them. You need mages to counter act the enemy zerging.
First use your resources on Katie. She can double as a HA when youre in trouble and she also has many other good atributes. she has decent attack and can stop Rushes, while increasing your points. (this makes Soldiers the most important class in the early game)
Archers should be your second option. as they can keep Katie Alive by killing the mob.
a healer should be third as Katie will need more life as maps continue.
lastly a HA.(Leanne being the only "free" option. as she can keep enemies from Katie by placing her in front.
after that get a duelist. (any duelist Really) and keep them in fron of your HA.
Duelist Classes are
Rogue
Bandit
Valkirie
Princess
Princess>Bandit>Valkirie>Rogue
They are a duelist but they are limited on what they are duelist with.
Obviously placing them in front of heavy armor is pointless they can not take them on easily, and can die quickly to them as you say. However heavy armor are not the only tough enemies either. Red wolves, they work wonders against, high atk / but slow swing enemies they work well against due to their dodge mechanic. This also is proven with later maps such as Dwarfs and Giants where the enemies attack will flatten the majority of units including HA's. Rogues have a purpose beyond just mere anti-rush, but like all duelists there is a time and place for each of them.
I find it hard if we decide role for them by class purely after all.
Then how you explain fran later? she a VH that her skill increase atk hp def ?
Also atm i'm using nagi a ninja as front liner too since her skill increase hp atk def as well *she a good tank lol specialy on killing those enemy ranged that stop moving*
Edit: yeah i actualy check my strategy placement depend on status (atk def vs enemy atk def, thats why i mention before i notice most med size enemy is around 500 atk)
I agree with your first conclusions, and tactical strats for low level (new) players. However your dislike of rogues makes you under value them a bit more then you should, and an undue bias. But everyone's play styles will differ. At early levels it is important to experiment to find what is right for the player.
My rating for a low / mid level player is thus:
Princess>Rogue>Valkyrie>Bandit
Here's why:
At early levels a bandit is the most useless unit you can use, they attack too slowly for them to kill anything of value and why they have high attack, at early levels they are not two shotting anything and they become a hindrance until they are leveled, because so much gets past them and so much healing resources have to be devoted to them. If they are less then level 30, extreme care must be used in placing them.
For role purposes certain classes are going to be better at different things but also multiple things, these multi roles are even more important when you are new player, as you are not going to be brute forcing your way through anything.
--A rogue is also an anti rush unit as well as a duelist.
--Valkyrie are the second best "tank" to an HA you can get at early levels. They also serve the dual purpose of increasing UC to get bigger and better units out like those mages in a rush map.
i ctually forgot to put in my list (this is the value at the begining of the game each unit has a diferent role in the late game)
i do understand why Rogues are good. (im finally training one to keep on my team (i had stated that several times i think. that Betty was gonna be my main Rogue))
but anyways i think youre underapreciating the Bandit class.
Bandits are meant to tank magic units.
like those pesky mages and magic dragons in the current maps. no other unit can beat those. also Strong bosses can be beaten with one well placed Bandit. (i know that most Bandits are male but that doesnt means that theyre bad)
TBH the main reason i use Conrad is because in DMM my main Bandit is the green haired Event girl.
Bandits are meant to tank magic units.
like those pesky mages and magic dragons in the current maps. no other unit can beat those. also Strong bosses can be beaten with one well placed Bandit. (i know that most Bandits are male but that doesnt means that theyre bad)
I will differ here with you for one reason. Valkyrie have MR and high HP, granted not as high as a Bandit. This gives a Valkyrie an edge over the bandit in that role, this becomes exponentially increased as the units are leveled due to the other benefits of a Valkyrie, as the bandits gain nothing further other then high HP and ATK, and their atk speed remains consistently slow.
Bandits are meat shields, through and through, they are a supplemental unit for when you do not have better, which is often the case in the early game. However they are easily replaced in every instance you can think of out side of special units like Cellia.
If you do have to use a silver bandit, Eunice is obviously the bandit of choice for ATK while Mortimer has the crown for HP between the two.
I do not undervalue them, they have a place but currently even on my free account their role is limited, and are easily replaced by units that are overall more useful. Is it a good idea to keep a few around, sure. Some maps are easier due to their high HP (immortal beast comes to mind), however units with MR are just as useful, maybe even more so in the same spot.
That is why I rank them last.
**Edit: The bottom line for me for the discussion is this, in early game the multipurpose of a unit will out weigh many things for which unit gets leveled first.
A Valkyrie will almost always be chosen over a bandit to level up. This is because of the multi role the Valkyrie serves.
Bit late on this, but it looks like she's hitting all blocked units even before using her skill, once her skill is active she starts hitting nearby non-blocked units as well.
My opinion on bandit, basicaly a high dmg unit with high hp, faster killer than valk for sure
They can be used as duelist for large enemy as well, since high atk enemy will likely bypass most of your def (we talking enemy that hiting 1k+) or of coz a mage type, the bad part is they need more healer, well that can be worked out depend on strat.
Just like valk they also good for ganking, those high hp can be a huge survival specialy on those slow atk ranged / caster enemy (dont gank ninja with bandit or u will regret it ) and they can kill faster before new incoming wave.
The most regretful of bandit probably cuz everyone love conrad too much that they not much is spotlight
They are a duelist but they are limited on what they are duelist with.
Obviously placing them in front of heavy armor is pointless they can not take them on easily, and can die quickly to them as you say. However heavy armor are not the only tough enemies either. Red wolves, they work wonders against, high atk / but slow swing enemies they work well against due to their dodge mechanic. This also is proven with later maps such as Dwarfs and Giants where the enemies attack will flatten the majority of units including HA's. Rogues have a purpose beyond just mere anti-rush, but like all duelists there is a time and place for each of them.
From every thing I remember red wolves appear in rushing groups. So.. anti-rush not really dueling there. They are after all simply tougher wolves. Dueling implies there is some form of extended fighting there, and there is not. As for Dwarfs and Giants... I can't really count that for the over all game. That is one challenge map which changes the role of many unit classes from its gimmick. It is an exception to the rule due to the fact that is actively changes the units.
Granted I picked Ada as my second rogue due to her increased tankiness so she can actually duel, but that doesn't fit the class as a whole, and it is a unique exception most class will have. Some unit that doesn't exactly fit the role of the class.
That honestly is where a unit guide like the one Clavat is doing would come in hand as it would be able to put specific units in specific roles.
However everyone has their opinions, and the majority of people here will help any newbie asking questions. Which is why some for of consensus has to be formed on roles in general for classes. Which is also why I posted an the rough draft of the update for the recommendation on teams, and what not. Looking for feedback on that.
I mean just going into the break down of the melee/proximity roles
Anti-Rush: A unit used to slow or stop a swarm of units(huddled up goblins) or a group of fast moving units(multiple wolves).
Duelist: A unit that are meant to fight in 1v1 fights and in some cases 1v2/1v3 fights for an extended period of time killing their targets. However they may be able to kill enemies fast enough to serve in an Anti-Rush role. Generally used to tank when the defenses of a true tank are unneeded
Ganker: A unit that can be dropped on top of an enemy to kill them quickly without a healer and withdrawn before they are overwhelmed and killed.
Tank: A unit with high defensive stats mean to mitigate/take damage the damage of groups of enemy units. While allowing ranged units to deal the damage to kill enemies they tank.
Support: A unit that heals or buffs an allied unit/s, or debuffs enemy unit/s.
I think everyone can agree that this covers pretty much all basis and is straight forward for most classes in most cases.
Can Valkyies tank some things? Yes they can, but they themselves are not tanks. Can a rogue duel? Sure, but the class as a whole are not duelists.
something was here... now it is not... will it be back who knows.
Thing is, bandits in general deal less damage than valks and even lesser than rogues. Their high atk stat only means business when applied under Risk Life skill. Outside of it their attack rate is too damn low and nullifies any stat advantage. Against armor they they fare slightly better, but I would still place damage-oriented rogue like Cypria a bit higher on a food chain.
I would second Xovian here and place bandits on the low tier as duelists. I learned to love my Conrad, but it's just too troublesome to time his deployment with target enemy so he can make use of Risk Life.
I think the underlying issue here is how you are defining tank.
Are you are trying to define a tank as a unit that multi blocks with high DEF, where as I and others here are not defining a tank as a unit that blocks multiple units?
If multi block is your "requirement" along with high DEF, even a soldier could be called a tank, and at the highest levels they can be used as such, there's a reason you don't see HA's on my team.
The consensus among us discussing this, seems to differ as to the definition of "tank".
As to rogues, I'll agree to disagree, as my free account relies HEAVILY on rogues as duelists. So we simply are not going to see eye to eye here, I'd recommend new players try them out to see if they are worth using in their teams based on what they have.
Simply put, most units of silver rarity and above will not fit into simple linear role, but several, as the rarity increases so does the likely hood of them filling multiple roles. *Begin Edit* Your use of Clissa can also show this truth, as she expands on the duelist ability of a Valkyrie, and also becomes a significant ganker due to her healing ability. *end edit*. Event units seem to expand on this even further by making "hybrids". Both Anya and Echidna are good examples of this.
Hyrbids are not event only and some will be coming as Gold premium and some as Silver premium. (not that many sadly D
Anywas!
i actually was considering Duelist as a unit that can be deployed to dispatch enemies quicker than your main Tank.
Tank.-Stops Enemies but needs Support to kill.
Duelist.-Melee unit that can kill but cant survive by itself (low HP/Def)
sorry for starting this whole Debate.
Also maybe we should start with Melee Class Guides...
Tank.-Stops Enemies but needs Support to kill.
Duelist.-Melee unit that can kill but cant survive by itself (low HP/Def)
sorry for starting this whole Debate.
Also maybe we should start with Melee Class Guides...
Debates are good, as it makes for clear and concise guides, which I'm sure any new player can appreciate the effort that goes into them. It's simply a matter of ironing out all the terminology and roles so to speak.
Here's the "problem" with that definition with a tank as you defined. It will be entirely subjective on the map and level of units used.
While an HA like Garret is obviously a "tank", depending on level and map used on he can kill just as quick as a rogue, and prevent anything from getting past with out any support outside of a healer. In the same sense is he also considered a duelist because of this? Relative roles are going to be messed with due to level of challenge and the level of the unit themselves.
Something to think on: A duelist can be a tank, but not every tank is a duelist.
Does anyone doubt that Sybilla (and Lilia for that matter) can tank? Of course she can, she has the Def to do so, as well as the MR. However she is also a duelist, as she takes things on one at a time.
The X factor by and large is the level of the units and the map you are going against so the role can actually change even with the same unit.
Both your definitions suggest the same thing, as both would need support in some fashion or another, or risk being over run. This is why I say it's harder to define then just simple "broad blanket statements". As almost every unit type will have one or more units that breaks the mold.
Edit:
Instead of roles, a unit tree may be a better solution to defining a unit. The "duelist" tree could be broken in many ways: Tank, Offense, Support roles. The same unit could appear in multiple trees due to the stats and/or skills of the unit. This might give the broader picture that may be desired.
This kind of discussion is generally pointless imo cos a lot of units are flexible and can fulfill different roles under different circumstances, the only thing that matters is the knowledge of ur unit's strong and weak points. It's pretty obvious that in general a soldier isn't a tank and a rogue isn't a duelist, and sooner or later there will be enemies strong enough to expose their weak spots in those roles, which doesn't mean they can't be used as such in some cases, especially when they're overleveled. Eventually we will (hopefully) have to choose the best fit or we'll fail.
If u insist to divide units by tiers then probably the only way to do so is giving them at least a primary and a secondary role, which would probably be anti-rush/duelist for rogues (though they can be also used as gankers etc). But to me using terms like "duelist" is misleading, at least in newbie guidies cos a noob can think that for example by 2-3 duelists u mean they can get 3 valkyries and do well, while versatility is a key and this is what I would personally teach them. What's the point of grouping units into roles while the roles definitions aren't even precisely set and I doubt they can be.
. As for alchemist low atk arguement we already had discussion in jp thread there
