Plan is bad. Right now melee weapons are finally decent, and certain fighting styles who have beyond raw damage rely on one handed. Two handers already combine high damage with a skillset that allows for more damage and dealing with groups.
Also don't see any reason for low body chars to stick with one handed.
Hmm. Well to clarify a bit, under my idea there both weapons would have similar/equal dice damage again. One handed is already at B/3 as is, and their dice wouldn't be dropping any, so it wouldn't harm one handers or duel wielders at all.
It's a very small change really. The main effect being that weapons that generally rely on high strength in reality, actually rely on the body value rather than having the same superior damage in the hands of a 10 year old.
And non warrior types wouldn't have to stick to one handed. It's just that they wouldn't be getting as much bonus for using a two hander. They'd end up doing similar damage with either.
It's not a bad idea overall, I don't think. The B/2 leaves two-handers a little too intense, though. It would pretty much have to be B/3 for two-handers and B/4 for one-handers.
For convenience: Numbers!
At 10 body that becomes
/2 = 5
/3 = 3 (rounding down from 3.33)
/4 = 3 (rounding up from 2.5)
/5 = 2
20
/2 = 10
/3 = 7 (6.66)
/4 = 5
/5 = 4
30
/2 = 15
/3 = 10
/4 = 8 (7.5)
/5 = 6
40
/2 = 20
/3 = 13 (13.33)
/4 = 10
/5 = 8
50
/2 = 25
/3 = 17 (16.66)
/4 = 13 (12.5)
/5 = 10
/2 is a little too intense for high body characters, I think. If I remember correctly from my scans through the DG character sheet thread, the average melee combat character is around 40 body. So basically, the difference between /3 and /4 at 40 is about the same as it is under the current penalties, with the exception of axes which it's a little kinder to.
I don't think it's a bad plan but at /2 and /3 it's a little too intense for two-handed weapons. At /3 and /4 (although I think the attack penalties would need to stay, too) it basically enforces the damage penalties that are already present on one-handers. It does have the side-effect of making two-handers less impressive for people without heavy weapons specialist (e.g. every active character but mine) and characters with low body but I don't know that this is necessarily a pro. Edit: I forgot to bring it up but the /3 and /4 thing also penalizes the pure one-handed weapons, though that could be counterbalanced..
On an unrelated note: it occurs to me that with +6 attack, staves are arguably one of the best weapons for slay-spamming heavy weapons specialists. >.> They're not bad for supreme might users either. +18 between that and skill-with-weapon. A character needs to hit about 80 hit before they can reliably slay basically anything in the game at 100% chance (judging by my initial look through the monsters information). +18 is a pretty good push towards that and a character only loses a top-end of 2 damage by doing so (but they also gain a min of 2).
I will cut my enemies in half with my stick of justice! (Not sexually! I meant murder!)
I still fundamentally disagree. Like I've already said, heavy weapons already has a better dice code plus a skillset geared towards heavy damage. Making these changes effectivly nerfs the one handed fighting styles and frankly I'm not seeing a problem that needs fixing here.
Geez. Next some will say firearms should do more damage because guns are more powerful than swords.
And on the staff, its always been the best weapon in dg. Used to be the only weapon adding body /2
First, /2 and /3 causes a bit too much of a gap. This alone doesn't make it a bad suggestion, it just means that the numbers need tweaked.
My second point was, that at /3 and /4 it basically does the same thing that the straight damage reduction currently does on some weapons. Switching from two-hands on a Bastard Sword to one-hand at 40 body gives the exact same penalty damage-wise with /3 and /4 as it would with just the -3. It causes less of an overall damage difference between two-handers and one-handers at lower body stats. Basically, the point was that it's an alternative that does much the same thing that's already been done with damage differences for changing between one-hand and two-hand mode. Using /3 and /4 does the exact same thing as the damage penalties in a lot of the cases and are actually more lenient than them in others (again, dual-wielding axes would be better under /3 and /4 than it would be under the -5 damage it currently takes).
More theorycraft.
So, assuming a bastard sword would do 3+2d10 with body/3 on two-handing and body/4 on one-handing (with a -3 attack penalty while one-handing but no more -damage penalty).
A person two-handing a bastard sword with 40 body would do 18-36 w/ an average of 27.
A person dual-wielding bastard swords with 40 body would do 15-33 w/ an average of 24 and a -3 attack penalty.
Let's bump the one-handed sword to +3 and compare it to a two-handed sword with body/3 and body/4. Note that I'm bumping it to 3 mostly because it's currently balanced around body/3.
A person wielding a two-handed sword with 40 body would do 18-40 w/ an average of 29.
A person wielding a one-handed sword with 40 body would do 16-32 w/ an average of 24. If left at +1 it would be 14-30 w/ an average of 22. No attack penalty, though.
With all that said, I'm for the weapons as Tassadar has done them just because they seem simpler and the numbers for them are already done. Plus, it's a little easier to balance.
To be honest, I wouldn't care if firearms did more damage. It really doesn't affect me in any way if some other character does more damage than mine does. I'm offering suggestions for balance changes just because Tassadar seems to want to balance things a bit.
The staff was actually tied with mace for most powerful before changes. Mace had 2 higher min, same average, 2 lower max and dealt damage based on body/2. That said, if the point is currently to balance things, it seems worthwhile to note that the new staff is arguably the most powerful two-handed weapon for a few very silly reasons.
I'd like to point out again to Incubus that as a key part of this idea, the two handed weapons dice code would be reduced to match the single handed, so you can stop mentioning the dice.
As it is now, without going into skills yet, two handers have an average of 5.5 damage over single handers of the same body score. Before considering the gap between B/3 and B/2, that needs to be discarded in any calculations.
Having seen Hafnium's math for the /3 and /2 split, a 50 body fighter would have a difference of 8 non variable damage gained from body between weapon types. So it's primarily a trade of 8 reliable damage, vs the benefit of either a shield or duel wielding ability. For any fighter that doesn't invest as heavily in body, the differences between styles are less pronounced. All non two hander styles remain exactly the same as they are now.
Compared to the current damage rates for weapons then, this alternative system result in...
At 50 body, two handers gain 2.5 damage.
At 40 body, two handers gain 1.5 damage.
At 30 body, two handers lose 0.5 damage.
At 20 body, two handers lose 2.5 damage.
Unless my math is wrong, this seems pretty fair to me (Perhaps you could check this Hafnium? Since it contrasts a bit to what you've said). The actual difference to the current set up is rather minimal. That may still be grounds to say it's not really necessary to bother implementing it, but I wanted to lay out my proposal a bit more before it was disregarded so quickly.
At worst, it slightly nerfs the stereotypical mage with a staff by a couple of damage points, though how often do 10 body mages use a melee attack for anything other than RP reasons?
My apologies, I derped and didn't notice that you had suggested /2 and /3 with the intention of using similar dice code between two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons. That does make /2 and /3's difference less huge.
I assume you mean that they gain/lose that damage with /2 and weapons of the same dice code in comparison to the weapons as Tassadar has put them up.
Numbers: The Re-Numbering!
For the purposes of me spitting out more numbers of questionable relevance, I'll use the one-handed sword as the base for what the new dice code might be like.
So: Ye Olde New Two-Handed Sword will be doing 3 + 2d12 + Body/3 while the other will be doing 1 + 3d6 + Body/2
At Body 10!
Old: 8-30 w/ an average of 19
New: 9-24 w/ an average of 17
1 and 6 loss on range, 2 loss on average (I rounded up from 16.5 on the new).
Body 20
Old: 12-34 w/ an average of 23
New: 14-29 w/ an average of 22
2 gain and 5 loss on range, 1 loss on average (Rounded up from 21.5 on new)
Body 30
Old: 15-37 w/ an average of 26
New: 19-34 w/ an average of 27
4 gain and 3 loss on range. 1 gain on average (rounded up from 26.5 on new).
Body 40
Old: 18-40 w/ an average of 29.
New: 24-39 w/ an average of 32.
6 gain and 1 loss on range. 3 gain on average (rounded up from 31.5 on new).
Tracking purposes: Body 40 one-hander w/ one-handed sword attack does 17-32 w/ an average of 25
Body 50:
Old: 22-44 w/ an average of 33
New: 29-44 w/ an average of 37.
7 gain and 0 loss on range. 4 gain on average (rounded up from 36.5 on new).
Going off for a second to check the current damage gap between two-weapon wielders and heavy weapons specialists.
Assuming both have the appropriate talents and skill-sets and are at 40 body and then normal attack.
Two-Handed Sword user damage per round using a normal attack: 30-52 w/ an average of 41 (accounts for +12 from heavy weapon specialist)
Dual One-Handed Sword user damage per round using both normal attacks: 34-64 w/ an average of 49. (This assumes that both weapon's attacks get the body bonus damage, if not then I think it's about 21-51 w/ an average of 36).
Now let's assume that they both have enough hit to reliably use their skills.
Two-Handed Sword user w/ 20 Supreme Might: 50-72 w/ an average of 61
Dual One-Handed Sword User using Whirling Death: 44-74 w/ an average of 59. (This assumes that the +10 damage only happens once per round, not a +10 to each individual weapon attack).
Dual One-Handed Sword User using Whirling Death and Rend: 46-86 w/ an average of 66.
Just for the fun of it, let's throw in a two-handed character w/ heavy weapons specialist and supreme might under the /2 suggestion.
56-71 w/ an average of 64.
This, of course, doesn't cover a few things. For one, Whirlwind is very superior to Scissor Defense for taking on multiple targets. For two, I think if you have the hit to spare maces are a better one-handed weapon than one-handed swords. There's also the matter of slay for single targeting, which is hard to factor in for usefulness. If you're fighting a single juggernaut then out-and-out slaying is much better than the damage bursts from two-weapon fighting. If you're fighting swarms of things then not so much but you have whirlwind for that.
I didn't have the willpower to check all of the numbers I just spit out there. There might be a bit of derpy math in that mess.
Overall, /2 and /3 with similar damage die for weapons isn't a bad deal. It might need a little bit more number tweaking.
I don't know, though, I think /2 and /3 would work as an overall plan with some tweaking. I'm still kind of inclined to the numbers that have already had some work done on them since there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them either.
I'm going to be away for the weekend, and won't be back until Monday. At that time, I'll post the final weapons revision, and then move all of it into the character creation thread. After that, I'll expect everyone to take care of their own stuff. I'll be checking as peoples threads come up, and anyone that hasn't editted the new stats into their sheet within a week of Monday or so will face much griping, since then I'll have to do it myself.
I apologize to all who are waiting on posts, since most of you are going to go past the 1 week marker. I also apologize to all who participated in the discussion below, as I seem like I've ignored it up until now since I haven't really responded to it. If possible, I'll get to that.
All the types of weapons that you can use in hand to hand combat. Only usable against creatures within 5 feet of the character unless otherwise noted.
Unarmed - Base damage is d4 + Body/4 damage. Increases with the Unarmed Fighter Talent. All characters have this, and it always deals Blunt damage.
One Handed Swords - Swords meant to be used in one hand, leaving the other hand free. Base damage is 2d12 + Body/3. Can deal either Slashing or Piercing damage. Examples: Longsword, Ninjato, gladius, dagger, rapier, knife, tanto.
Two Handed Swords - Swords that can only be used with both hands. Base damage is 2 + 2d10 + Body/3. Can deal only Slashing damage. Examples: Claymores, greatswords, nodachi.
Bastard Swords - Swords that can be used in either one hand or both hands. Base damage is 4 + 2d8 + Body/3. Can deal either Slashing or Piercing damage. Examples: Katanas, broadswords.
Staffs - Long pieces of wood meant to be wielded with two hands and used to bonk things on the head. Base damage is 2d6 + Body/2. Always deal Blunt damage. Examples: Bo staffs, wu-tang staffs, quarterstaffs.
Clubs - Blunt objects that can be used in one or both hands. Base damage is 1d12 + Body/2. Always deal Blunt damage. Examples: Baseball bats, cudgels, warclubs.
Maces/Hammers - Heavy blunt objects with spikes on them. Base damage is 2 + 2d4 + Body/2. Can deal either Blunt or Piercing damage. Examples: Spiked maces, warmaces, warhammers.
Polearms - Long wooden poles with things on the end meant to do damage. Base damage is 6 + 3d4 + Body/3. Can attack creatures up to 5 feet away, and can deal either Blunt, Piercing, or Slashing damage. Examples: Spear, scythe, halberd, greataxe, naginata, lance.
Axes - Poles with axe heads on them that can be used to deal either in one or two hands. Base damage is 2 + 2d10 + Body/3. Can only deal Slashing damage.
Shortspears - Shorter than polearms, these are basically one handed staffs with something pointy on the end. Usually about 5 to 6 feet long. Base damage is 3 + 3d6 + Body/3. Can deal Piercing damage or Blunt damage.
Ranged Weapons
Weapons that can be used to strike foes at a distance. Require ammunition, and have their range and rate of fire stated along with their other stats. Always deal Piercing damage. A weapon with a rate of fire higher than 1 can be fired multiple times per round, but each shot after the first causes every attack to take a cumulative -5 to the to-hit roll. The types of ranged weapons that one can become skilled in are: Bows, Crossbows, Rifles, Pistols, and Thrown Weapons.
[Bows]
Long Bows - Bows commonly used by the High Elves and the Crolians, with long range and high power but slow rate of fire. Base damage is 2d8 + Body/3. Range is 120 feet. Rate of fire is 1 shot per round. Reload time is 0 rounds. Magazine size is 1 shot.
Short Bows - Bows commonly used by the Night Elves and the Amazons, with high rate of fire but limited range and power. Base damage is 3d6 + Body/3. Range is 40 feet. Rate of fire is 3 shots per round. Reload time is 0 rounds. Magazine size is 1 shot.
Compound Bows - Bows commonly used by the Su-Ku-Ta and Anudorians, with moderate damage, range, and rate of fire. Base damage is 4d4 + Body/3. Range is 60 feet. Rate of fire is 2 shots per round. Reload time is 0 rounds. Magazine size is 1 shot.
[Crossbows]
Light Crossbow - A light, portable crossbow that can be used in one hand. Moderate range and high damage, but extremely low rate of fire. Base damage is 3d6 + 20. Range is 70 feet. Rate of fire is 1 shot per round. Reload time is 1 round. Magazine size is 3 shots.
Heavy Crossbow - A heavy, bulky crossbow that requires two hands to operate. High damage and range, but extremely slow firing. Base damage is 4d6 + 22. Range is 100 feet. Rate of fire is 1 shot per round. Reload time is 2 rounds. Magazine size is 2 shots.
Repeating Crossbow - A light crossbow that can be fired repeatedly before reloading, but with low range and damage. Base damage is 2d6 + 16. Range is 40 feet. Rate of fire is 3 shots per round. Reload time is 3 rounds. Magazine size is 12 shots.
[Rifles]
Badarian Breach Loader - A heavy rifle with good range and damage, but only holds a single shot. Base damage is 3d6 + 20. Range is 80 feet. Rate of fire is 1 shot per round. Reload time is 1 rounds. Magazine size is 1 shot.
Badarian Lever-Action Rifle - A light rifle with moderate range and low damage, but with a large magazine and high rate of fire. Base damage is 2d8 + 14. Range is 50 feet. Rate of fire is 4 shots per round. Reload time is 4 rounds. Magazine size is 12 shots.
Su-Ku-Ta Assault Rifle - A heavy rifle with an extremely high rate of fire, but low range and damage. Base damage is 1d10 + 14. Range is 20 feet. Rate of fire is 5 shots per round. Reload time is 2 rounds. Magazine size is 20 shots.
Su-Ku-Ta Sniper Rifle - A long barreled rifle with long range and high damage, but extremely long reload time and only a single shot. Base damage is 3d10 + 20. Range is 140 feet. Rate of fire is 1 shot per round. Reload time is 2 rounds. Magazine size is 1 shot.
Badarian Shotgun - A long barreled gun with two shots, extremely short range, moderate reload time, and high damage. Base damage is 5d6 + 16. Range is 15 feet. Rate of fire is 2 shots per round. Reload time is 1 round. Magazine size is 2 shots.
[Pistols]
Badarian Handcannon - A long barreled pistol with a long reload time and short range, but high damage. Base damage is 2d8 + 20. Range is 20 feet. Rate of fire is 1 shot per round. Reload time is 1 round. Magazine size is 1 shot.
Badarian Revolver - A short pistol with moderate range, damage, and ammunition. Base damage is 3d4 + 16. Range is 20 feet. Rate of fire is 2 shots per round. Reload time is 3 rounds. Magazine size is 6 shots.
Su-Ku-Ta Repeating Pistol - A mid range pistol with a high rate of fire and a large magazine, but poor damage. Base damage is 2d6 + 14. Range is 30 feet. Rate of fire is 3 shots per round. Reload time is 3 rounds. Magazine size is 15 shots.
Su-Ku-Ta Wargun - A heavy long barreled pistol with a small magazine but moderate range and high damage. Base damage is 2d4 + 18. Range is 30 feet. Rate of fire is 1 shot per round. Reload time is 2 rounds. Magazine size is 3 shots.
[Thrown Weapons]
(Note: Thrown weapons are unique in that, rather than have a limited amount of ammo that can then be reloaded, they must be retrieved after or during combat if you run out of shots.)
Throwing Knives - A quintet of blades that are easily concealable. Base damage is 2d6 + Body/4, range is 20 feet, come in packs of 5, and up to three can be thrown per round. Note that they must be retrieved from dead enemies to be thrown again.
Throwing Axes - A trio of small hand axes that are balanced for throwing, heavy and capable of great damage. Base damage is 2d4 + Body/3, range is 15 feet, come in packs of 3, but only 1 can be thrown per round. Note that they must be retrieved from dead enemies to be thrown again.
Javelins - A pair of short balanced spears, excellent for use at longer range than most throwing weapons. Base damage is 3d6 + Body/4, range is 30 feet, but only come in packs of 2, and only 1 can be thrown per round. Note that they must be retrieved from dead enemies to be thrown again.
Here are the newer weapons, which will be in the thread after I've posted this:
Melee
Unarmed - Base damage is 2d4 + Body/4 damage. Increases with the Unarmed Fighter Talent. All characters have this, and it always deals Blunt damage. Unarmed strikes are always considered one handed. Upgraded via the Unarmed Fighter Talent, it becomes: 1 + 2d8 + Body/3
Stronger Version Damage: Average = 10 + X, Range = 3-17 + X.
One Handed Swords - Swords meant to be used in one hand, leaving the other hand free. Base damage is 1 + 3d6 + Body/3. Can deal either Slashing or Piercing damage. Examples: Longsword, Ninjato, gladius, dagger, rapier, knife, tanto, ect.
Average damage is 10.5 + X, damage range 4-19 + X.
Two Handed Swords - Swords that can only be used with both hands. Base damage is 3 + 2d12 + Body/3. Can deal only Slashing damage. Examples: Claymores, greatswords, nodachi.
Average damage is 16 + X, damage range 5-27 + X
Bastard Swords - Swords that can be used in either one hand or both hands. Base damage is 3 + 2d10 + Body/3, and has -3 to damage and attack rolls if used in only one hand while a +2 to damage if used in two hands. Can deal either Slashing or Piercing damage. Examples: Katanas, broadswords.
Average damage is 16 + X or 11 + X and -3 to attack, damage range 7-25 + X two handed or 2-20 + X one handed.
Staffs - Long pieces of wood wielded with two hands and used to bonk things on the head. Base damage is 1 + 6d4 + Body/3 and grant a +6 to attack rolls. Always deal Blunt damage. Examples: Bo staffs, wu-tang staffs, quarterstaffs.
Average damage is 15 + X, damage range 7-25 + X, +6 to attack rolls.
Blunt Weapons - Heavy blunt objects, possibly with spikes on them. Can be wielded in either one or two hands. Base damage is 2d12 + Body/3, but take -3 to damage when wielded in only one hand, or a +3 to damage when wielded in two hands.
Average damage is 10 + X in one hand, or 15 + X in two hands. Damage range is -1-21 + X or 5-27 + X.
Polearms - Long wooden poles with things on the end meant to do damage. Can only be wielded in two hands. Base damage is 3d10 - 1 + Body/3. Can attack creatures up to 5 feet away, and can deal either Blunt, Piercing, or Slashing damage. Examples: Spear, scythe, halberd, greataxe, naginata, lance.
Average damage is 15.5 + X, damage range is 2-29 + X.
Axes - Poles with axe heads on them that can be used in either in one or two hands. Base damage is 7 + 2d8 + Body/3, but always take -4 to attack rolls, as well as -5 to damage if used in only one hand. Can only deal Slashing damage.
Average damage is 11 + X one handed or 16 + X two handed, damage range is 4-18 + X or 9-23 + X.
Ranged
Rifles
Badarian Breach Loader - A heavy rifle with high range and damage, but only holds a single shot. Base damage is 3d8 + 3, 80 foot range, holds 1 shot, 1 round reload, ignores 10 AV.
Damage: Average = 16.5, Range = 6-27
Badarian Shotgun - A long barreled gun with two only shots, short range but high damage. Its smaller, more spread out projectiles have trouble penetrating armor. Base damage is 3d12 + 7, 20 foot range, holds 2 shot, 2 round reload.
Damage: Average = 26.5, Range = 10-43
Badarian Lever-Action Rifle - A light, easy to use rifle with moderate range and damage. Base damage is 3d8 + 3, 60 foot range, holds 5 shots, 2 round reload, ignore 5 AV.
Damage: Average = 16.5, Range = 6-27
Su-Ku-Ta Sniper Rifle - A long barreled rifle with long range and high damage, but long reload time and only a single shot. Base damage is 5d8 + 3, 120 foot range, holds 1 shot, 5 round reload, ignore 10 AV.
Damage: Average = 25.5, Range = 8-43
Su-Ku-Ta Assault Rifle - A heavy rifle with a large magazine, but low range and damage. Base damage is 1d12 + 3, 40 foot range, holds 11 shots, 3 round reload, ignores 10 AV.
Damage: Average = 9.5, Range = 4-15
Pistols
Badarian Handcannon - A long barreled breech loading pistol with only a single shot, a short reload time and short range, but very high damage. Its rounds tend to shatter on impact, so it has trouble penetrating armor. Base damage is 4d10 + 1, 20 foot range, holds 1 shot, 2 round reload.
Damage: Average = 23, Range = 4-41
Badarian Revolver - A short range revolver with moderate range, damage, and ammunition. Base damage is 2d10 + 2, 50 foot range, holds 5 shots, 3 round reload, ignore 5 AV.
Damage: Average = 13, Range = 4-22
Su-Ku-Ta Repeating Pistol - A short range pistol with a large magazine, but only moderate damage. Base damage is 3d6 + 2, 30 foot range, holds 7 shots, 3 round reload, ignore 10 AV.
Damage: Average = 11.5, Range = 5-20
Su-Ku-Ta Wargun - A heavy, long double barreled pistol with a small magazine and short range but fairly high damage. Base damage is 2d8 + 4, 30 foot range, holds 3 shots, 2 round reload, ignore 10 AV.
Damage: Average = 13, Range = 6-20
Other
The Bow: 2d6 + Body/3 damage, Range 120ft, reload time: 0 rounds
Damage: Average = 7 + X, Range = 2-12 + X
Throwing Knives: 3d4 + Body/3 damage, range: 30ft, set of 6.
Damage: Average = 7.5 + X, Range = 3-12 + X
Throwing Axes: 2d6 + Body/3 damage, range: 20ft, set of 3.
Damage: Average = 7 + X, Range = 2-12 + X
Javelins: 2 + 1d10 + Body/3 damage, range 40ft, set of 3.
Damage: Average = 7.5 + X, Range = 3-12 + X
Here are the Skills after this post:
General Skills
Mage-Hunter: Gain +10 Dodge and opposed checks against Magic based attacks. Requires: Mind 14+.
Spirit-Oppressor: Gain +10 to Dodge and opposed checks against Spirit based attacks. Requires: Spirit 14+.
Thief: Can open locks and disarm traps, no rolls required. Also gives +4 to Perception and Stealth rolls when in urban environments. Requires Body 20+.
Normal: Locks must be broken, and traps can't even be detected, much less disarmed.
Ranger: Can track any target indefinitely, so long as it doesn't cross a large body of water or take to the air, and can determine what creatures are nearby. Also gains +4 to Perception and Stealth rolls while in the wilderness. Requires: Body 20+.
Smite{Activated}: On any melee attack, you can trade EP for damage at a rate of 1 EP for every 1 point of damage added. Requires: Spirit 14+.
Sudden Strike{Activated}: You can wait until the end of the round to make your attack, and take -10 on your to-hit and Dodge for that round, at which point you will make a Stealth check against your target. If you succeed, the attack for that round counts as a sneak attack. Requires: Stealthy.
Unarmed Skills
Disarm{Activated}: When wielding no weapons against an armed opponent, you can choose to have your attack deal no damage that round, and if it hits, you instead pluck the enemies weapon out of their hands, allowing you to use it if you so desire. Otherwise, it can be thrown aside in a direction of the casters choosing. Requires: Unarmed Fighter.
Defensive Grappler{Activated}: When in a grapple, you can forsake all other actions for that round in order to make an attack (Attack vs Dodge instead of as part of a Grapple check) against any enemy attempting to perform a grapple action against you. If this attack deals damage, the enemies action automatically fails. Requires: Unarmed Fighter.
Stunning Blow{Activated}: When you make an unarmed attack, you can take -10 off of to-hit and damage in order to stun your target should they be hit. Requires: Unarmed Fighter.
Shield Fighter Skills
Defensive Strike{Activated}: You can forsake your attack for the round in order to firstly gain +12 to Dodge, and secondly gain an attack against any enemy that attacks you in melee and misses. Requires: Dueling OR Shield Fighter.
Shield Slam{Activated}: You can forsake your normal attack for this round to make only a Shield Bash, which, if it hits, causes your target to be knocked prone unless they win an opposed Body check against you. Your shield bash also does an additional 6 damage for that round. Requires: Shield Fighter.
Shield Cover{Activated}: You can forsake all actions for the round, including movement, in order to prevent all damage (or other negative affects) that would be dealt to you this round unless something hits you from behind (or all directions at once.) Cannot be used when grappled. Requires: Shield Fighter.
Dueling Skills
Defensive Strike{Activated}: You can forsake your attack for the round in order to firstly gain +12 to Dodge, and secondly to gain an attack against any enemy that attacks you in melee and misses. Requires: Dueling OR Shield Fighter.
Lightning Jabs{Activated}: You can take a -12 to-hit and -6 to damage for the round, but you can take 3 attacks instead of one. Requires: Dueling.
Defenseless{Activated}: When fighting against an unarmed opponent (IE: One with no weapon not attached to their body) You can take -4 to your damage for your attack to automatically hit them whenever you attack them. Requires: Dueling.
That's Mine Now {Activated}: When fighting an armed opponent, you can choose to make it so that you deal no damage this round and take -10 on your to-hit. If you successfully hit an opponent, they lose any weapon they are holding, and if they are using a one-handed weapon, you can choose to take it from them and use it as a second weapon. Otherwise, that weapon is sent flying at least ten feet away in a direction of the users choosing. Requires: Dueling.
Heavy Weapons Skills
Supreme Might{Activated}: When wielding a two handed melee weapon, you can trade your to-hit for additional damage at a rate of 1 damage for every 1 point of to-hit given up. No more than 20 points can be traded per round. Requires: Heavy Weapons Specialist.
Whirlwind{Activated}: When wielding a two handed weapon, you can choose to make an attack against all nearby enemies at once at a -10 to to-hit and damage. Requires: Heavy Weapons Specialist.
Slay{Activated}: When you attack, you can choose to take -30 from the to-hit roll and -10 to Dodge and Armor for the round, and in exchange, if your attack hits an enemy, they are immediately killed. Requires: Heavy Weapons Specialist.
Two Weapon Skills
Scissor Defense{Activated}: When using two weapons at once, you can sacrifice your attacks and take -10 on Dodge for that round, but gain +10 on Armor, and you automatically attack any enemy that successfully hits you (with both of your weapons.) Requires: Two Weapon Fighter.
Rend{Activated}: When wielding two weapons at once, you can take -6 on both attack rolls so that, if you hit with both weapons in the same round, you deal an additional 2d12 damage to your target. Requires: Two Weapon Fighter.
Whirling Death{Activated}: Gain +10 to Dodge and damage per hit, but lose 5 HP each round for as long as this remains active. Can be deactivated at any time, but automatically turns off once combat ends. Requires: Two Weapon Fighter.
Ranged Skills
Called Shot{Activated}: When using a ranged weapon, you can take a -16 penalty to your to-hit to inflict double damage on the target if your attack hits. This stacks with the doubling on a successful sneak attack. Requires: Body 20+.
Crippling Shot{Activated}: When using a ranged weapon, you can take a -10 on the to-hit in order to stun the target if it fails an opposed Resistance check against you. Requires: Body 20+.
Sudden Shot{Activated}: When attacking with a ranged weapon in melee combat, you can take -10 to Dodge for that round in order to make a Stealth check at -10 against an enemy that you are attacking. If you succeed, that attack counts as a sneak attack. Requires: Stealthy.
Bayonet: When using a ranged weapon, you can treat it as a melee weapon, either as a double-edged dagger (guns and crossbows) or as a club (bows.) Note: Using your ranged weapon as a melee weapon does not allow you to use Sudden Shot with it. Also, if you have Skill with [ranged weapon], the bonus to-hit still counts. However, because of how clumsy such a use can be, all attacks are made at -8 to attack and damage. Requires: Body 20+.
Quick Reload: Decreases the reload time with your preferred ranged weapons by 1. Requires: Skill with Any Ranged weapon.
Rapid Shot{Activated}: You can take -10 to attack rolls and -6 to damage rolls for the round, but in exchange you may take an extra shot. This skill can be activated up to twice in a round, allowing up to three shots at -20/-12.
Cross-Class Skills
Battlemage: You can use your Body to-hit instead of your Mind to-hit when attacking with spells. Requires: Any Focus in {Element} Talent.
Bladesinger: You can use your Body to-hit instead of your Spirit to-hit when attacking with powers. Requires: Any Spirit Talent that gives powers.
Wise Fighter: You can use your Mind in place of your Body stat to determine how much damage you deal on a successfully hit with a melee attack. Requires: Mind 20+.
Spirited Fighter: You can use your Spirit in place of your Body stat to determine how much damage you deal on a successfully hit with a melee attack. Requires: Spirit 20+.
Defensive Casting: When using offensive Magic, you can fight defensively as if you were using a weapon. Requires: Mind 20+.
Defensive Spirit: When using offensive Spirit powers, you can fight defensively as if you were using a weapon. Requires: Spirit 20+.
Now, on to Balancing Spirit Powers. I'm planning on using a sort of Template system like I did for ranged weapons. More details will be editted into this post later.
There will be a number of Templates that the powers will follow, and each different type of spirit user (Necromancer, Spirit Warrior, ect...) will have at least one of each type. How they differ should not only be in flavor, but in execution. To start, I'll name the different Templates:
Attack: Anything that deals damage. They have a maximum range and a varying number of targets. Energy Blast, Piercer, Agony Bolt, Mind Cutter, ect. These are the simplest and easiest to balance. They'll all start at some base damage value, say 1d6 per EP spent, and be able to hit a single target within 50 feet with line of sight. Then, they'll have a number of creation points to use, say 5. These can be used to add dice, increase the die value, or add different ranges to the attack.
Buff: Increase stats by some amount. These are the ones I plan on changing the least, since I actually like where they're at right now. Battle Aura, Fell Might, Dark Armor, ect. You'd get 5 points, and use them to get various things. Obviously, some stats would be worth more than others, like Attack or melee damage vs Perception or Stealth. Start at costing 3 + X EP and X Upkeep, and increases every affected stat by 3X.
Incapacitate: Any ability that somehow instantly brings down an enemy without actually dealing damage. This is the section that needs the most work, as it includes things like Binding, Gorgons Gaze, and Telepathy. The things that would be fiddled with would how they're incapacitated, whether there's an Upkeep, and how quickly the check made against the enemies Resistance should go up.
Weapon: The many things that can be summoned up to increase the users melee damage. They work sort of like Buffs, but only have the one effect and allow you to attack with them in the same turn that you summon them. Again, you'd get say, 5 points with which to fiddle around in order to add bonuses and such.
Utility: Everything that doesn't fit easily into any other category. Things like Holy Wall, Flight, Teleport and Animate.
Also, I was toying with the idea of dealing with AoE in this manner: When something uses an AoE spell or attack, their targets each make a Dodge roll against that characters Mind or Spirit stat depending on whether it's a Spell or a Power. Yes, I know I've said that I don't want to do Dodge rolls for anything. Anybody have any thoughts on this idea, or how it might be improved or circumvented without an entirely new stat of some sort?
Another idea I had: Similar to Base Casting for Mages, a Spirit Limit. Basically, a natural ceiling on how much EP you can pump into a single attack. I considered making it S/2, but that would basically be pointless for most characters that rely on Spirit, but then S/4 seemed too small. Any thoughts on that?
And, finally, I added the ability to drag someone while grappling to the rules. Makes sense really, I just never thought about letting PCs do it.
Have AoE dodge be solely reliant on Speed. The way I see it if someone raises a 10 foot wide column of fire at your feet the only way you're going to get away is by diving to safety. If a character can clear the area then they're safe. If not, they're fried.
You could also augment this by making the dive mechanic a Mind vs Mind or Spirit vs Spirit check. Let's say my Alex knows a fire spell and is going to try to use it against...thetwo's Ashley. Ashley is a far more experienced mage than Alex could even dream about, so she would be able to recognize the lizard woman trying to attempt a spell and where it will supposedly hit. If I targeted a 10 ft diameter fire-explosion at Ashley's center she would react to that and be able to escape unharmed. If we do go by that then any creatures that are considered mindless should not be able to dive. You need to have some intelligence in order to react.
And if you wanted to add some tactical flair you could make the dive always run in the direction that ensures success. In my above example I would set the explosive behind Ashley which would force her to dive forward and closer to Alex where she would have a definite disadvantage. And if Ashley decided to play the same game she would set an AoE somewhere in front of Alex to force Alex to back away or take damage trying to reach her.
Regarding the rebalancing of Spirit powers, I had an idea... why not make it so that, instead of having a list of powers, like there is currently, you have a list of options, and when you use a power, you make it on the fly. For example, if you had the options "Attack - Increased Range" and "Attack - Increased Die Size", you could make an attack power that had a longer range and used a d8 for damage, spending extra EP to use those two options as well as for the damage output.
This would allow a Spirit user to customize their powers for whatever occasion they find themselves in, suitable as it seemed their niche was customization.
The utility powers would still have their unique names and results though.
As for regulating the amount of EP to spend on a power, maybe, rather than a scaling limit (one tied to the user's Stats, like Spirit/4), it could be a hard limit (for example, 20 EP per power max) and have talents like "Spirit Control" that increase the limit.
Ohhh, but I like the unique-and-fleshed-out spirit powers. It's just not as fun for me if my mindbullets become a-2d4-plus-mods-that-I-just-call-mindbullets. Why do you people want to sterilize everythingggg
I also like the herpderp alpha strike you can do with spirit powers... but, I suppose it is pretty bullshit that the Spirit can just go "Hit him harder!" by pouring more EP on, and can pour as much as they want, the only drawback being that they'll run out if they're too liberal with it.
At the same time, the alpha strike is a fairly interesting feature, and - well, in my opinion, since DG is played mostly single-player, and most enemies aren't based off the Player's classes, the design should prioritize "being rad" first and "being balanced" second.
I would suggest, instead of a cap, to instead put in drawbacks to spending a whole bunch to boost up powers. Maybe if X > 5, you take damage - probably the same as you deal, but with X being the EP spent over your limit? Perhaps after an even higher limit, you have to spend 2 EP instead, and at a third, EVEN higher limit, using so much at once locks out your spirit powers for some number of turns. Perhaps a Talent could be taken to boost these limits - able to use 10 EP without hurting yourself, etc.
...But, again, I am of the opinion that big changes like this should wait until the next revision of the game, when we won't potentially nerf away victory for people. I am also not a fan of going from six statblocks for bows to just one super-generic bow, but that is neither here nor there.
Well.. a cap on how much EP to be poured in sounds like a good idea.
OR
You could have certain tiers where putting X amount of EP means a 5% chance for auto fail (due to mishandling the swirling amounts of spiritual energy)
And then another tier might mean that if you put Y amount EP into a single attack might mean that there's a 10% of auto fail and a 5% chance of backlash damage as well...
These tiers would serve as a natural deterrent to casual use of awesome power. If people knew there was a chance of wasted EP or even backlash damage, they might be a bit more conservative with the use of their EP. Additionally, the tier system would still allow the Spirit Users to "Push the Limit" like they're used to... the majority of the time, they'll get away with it.
That way you don't have to alter the mechanics, just establish the danger levels as you see fit.
Random note: I have discovered that, unless I'm misunderstanding something, at 40 body a two weapon fighter warrior dual wielding one-handed swords with weapon proficiency can use Whirling Death + Rend and do 56-108 damage (Avg: 82) per round while maintaining 46 to-hit.
Related note: I was correct about there being a quantity of derp in my earlier math. After needlessly complicating the way I was calculating the low and top-end for dual wielding I made a mistake in adding rend's damage to the top-end. Whoops. >.>
I like maikochan's idea in general (partially because I was tinkering around with something similar for a homebrew tabletop. >.>) but I imagine it would cause a lot of respeccing and upheaval by this point in the game. Also, I think spirit powers kind of work as is, though the system is perhaps lacking in a few mechanics to balance some powers (AoE in particular).
Regarding AoE: Termite's link to speed seems like a good solution. I'm borrowing heavily from their suggestion but perhaps you could do something along these lines: When the AoE isn't centered on a particular target they make a Mind v. Mind or Spirit v. Spirit check, on a success they subtract their dodge or speed (or a combination of both) from the final damage.
This could potentially be combined with doing half damage on targets more than 5 or 10 feet (or change it depending on spell) from the center or target of the AoE.
Completely unnecessary example:
Say Urist McSpirit uses an AoE power that would do 90 damage on 4 Jerks, 2 are within 10 feet of the blast, 2 are further. The jerks all have 40 dodge.
Jerk 1, within 5 feet, fails his roll and takes 90, being obliterated from this particular plane of existence.
Jerk 2, within 5 feet, succeeds and takes 50, at least he still has his tendons.
Jerk 3, further away, fails and takes 45 damage. He suffers Vietnam flashbacks despite not having been there.
Jerk 4 succeeds and takes 5 damage, hurray for Jerk 4! Too bad he'll probably be beaten to death with Jerk 2's corpse next round.
A bit more to track but something along those lines might be useful.
In regards to EP, I think rather than putting a hard cap on how much someone can use in one ability, one option might be to make recovery take longer. The more EP you have to regen the longer you're considered to have spent resting when you do.
Let's say an average break takes 5 in-game minutes, during which it's generally assumed that a character loots the corpse/s, tries to repair their clothing, has a quick cry (depending on how the encounter went), tries to repair their dignity, bandages up, and has a seat.
So, perhaps for each 10 EP that needs to be recovered consider that duration as being lengthened for a few minutes, making the resting spirit user a bit more vulnerable if they haven't found a safe place to camp. More encounter rolls as more in-game time lapses, more danger, and so on. There should be an option to continue moving without regaining all their energy, of course.
This would mean that a spirit user (and to a lesser extent, mage) has to be a little more careful in budgeting their EP use lest it come back to bite them later. Pure body characters get a small boost in being able to throw a band-aid on their wounds and go with a shorter amount of in-game time passing (hopefully not a huge differences in posts needed to get past resting, the goal would be for no change in that regard, I think).
I probably do not belong in this discussion, but I will offer an opinion from someone who had a background in playtesting various games through the years. Dual wielding damage should be reduced. The logical explanation for dual wielding would be that you simply do not have the ability to swing as hard or as accurately with two weapons as you do with one (LARP experience backs this up).
The easiest way to prove this point would be to take a few sticks outside and smack a tree with them. Take one stick in one hand and you can do what you want really with them. If you try to attack with both hands now with a stick in each hand you can tell that your off hand really wont do much, and it almost can be used as a shield in a sense as you can still parry with that off hand weapon. It would take alot of coordination to be able to wield dual weapons properly imho. The damage you can do with each swing should be reduced to reflect that, but you do have to account for being able to make more than one attack.
Lets say this for a base model.
1h sword - 1d10 damage +3 to hit
2h sword - 3d6 damage -5 to hit
dual wield - 1d10 damage +0 to hit
off hand weapon - 1d6 damage -2 to hit
Of course this is done only to convey the differences at a base level of the different types of weapon at a base level. There could be ways to offset the off hand penalty or the 2h penalty to hit with skills and the like, but at a base level you need to account for these things as an unskilled person would not be able to wield the weapons properly. Other minor details like finding a quality weapon of one type or another can change this, but there needs to be a base model to go on.
I know Blarg. Damned balance. That said, the EP dump alpha strike nature of the offensive spirit powers is fair to call broken.
Personally I'm rather wary of Maiko's idea. It might be possible, but the effect it would have on current characters could be huge. Whilst the option to customise powers and add your own fluff sounds interesting, I do also quite like the current defined powers. My character currently has 8 spirit powers, and I've honestly been considering adding 4 more to her repertoire if I ever got enough XP and game time to allow such. What happens when you try to convert all those into some point build system I have no idea.
Regarding restricting the "alpha strike" and ideas about spirit limits, I came to a similar idea to some of the others here. My first idea has been a spirit limit working as a HP draining 'soft cap'. That any EP used (per turn) above the spirit limit would harm the character dealing HP damage to them for every point above the limit. It kind of fits the common theme of spirit magic users pushing their limits and burning themselves out because of it. I think it has a nice RP fluff to it. Alternatively or additionally, EP spent above the limit could also incur an extra EP cost as wasted EP. It would reflect the character being less adept at controlling that quantity of energy and naturally losing some of it due to inefficiency.
Where the actual spirit limit and damage/waste scaling sits though needs careful consideration.
At S/4, a dedicated spirit user ends up with a limit of roughly 10 to 15. A cross class character such as a warrior or succubus with a single pair of spirit powers might find this restrictively low though. Potentially setting the limit before damage is incurred at 3 to 5. Certain powers that require a minimum initial expenditure will end up hurting them every time used.
At S/3, a dedicated spirit user ends up with a limit of roughly 13 to 20, which probably wouldn't provide a substantial enough restriction unless the penalties were particularly high.
