Dark Gate OOC Thread

[GargantuaBlarg]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

...I'm still not quite sure what speed actually did or how it was used. All I know is that most characters had it really low.

But uh. I'm assuming a lot of people that took it built speedy characters - will they be able to function now with a good chunk of their shtick gone? I mean, without armor and stuff, I assume they relied on their kiting or ability to run, so.

Also, a base value speed given to everyone, like 10 or 15, might help devalue speed so a fast guy doesn't outclass others in the realm of speed so utterly.


Every spell checks the caster's resistance? I don't understand.


6 seems a little low, to me. If I bought 8 Body instead of the talent, I'd get a TON more points - 8 HP, 4 PP/EP, 4 in Resistance (maybe), dodge, and a couple points or so of damage. The talent trades in all of that for a meager increase of two more speed than I'd otherwise get - and distances in this game I usually see measured way up in, like, the tens of feet.

Of course, as I said I still have no idea what speed does for the player character, or how I, the player, am to use it.


Since I actually know what that one does. I think of it as pretty important, so the lower amount might be justifiable... but still, it's only a boost of +2 over what you'd otherwise get, and in exchange you get none of the HP or damage or anything.

For the both, eight at least sounds good, in my opinion - a 1:1 ratio, right. Going over would make mathematical sense, probably, to compensate for the loss of points elsewhere, but I dunno if it works from a design standpoint - since it's just two steps up to the current +12, where there apparently exists a problem.

 

[Unknown Squid]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Very good point from Blarg there regarding the extra benefits your losing if the quick talent gets nerfed too much. It could become almost worthless.

Regarding the base speed idea I had, I was thinking more along the lines of 6 or so. It would provide enough speed that casters aren't stationary spell turrets, but not be so much as to take away warrior classes advantage.

Though saying that, I also just now realised that speeding everyone up does probably also work against casters and ranged fighters regarding opponents being able to close on them faster, while most of the time mages don't actually resort to backpedalling. : /

 

[Tassadar]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

...I'm still not quite sure what speed actually did or how it was used. All I know is that most characters had it really low.

But uh. I'm assuming a lot of people that took it built speedy characters - will they be able to function now with a good chunk of their shtick gone? I mean, without armor and stuff, I assume they relied on their kiting or ability to run, so.

Also, a base value speed given to everyone, like 10 or 15, might help devalue speed so a fast guy doesn't outclass others in the realm of speed so utterly.


Every spell checks the caster's resistance? I don't understand.


6 seems a little low, to me. If I bought 8 Body instead of the talent, I'd get a TON more points - 8 HP, 4 PP/EP, 4 in Resistance (maybe), dodge, and a couple points or so of damage. The talent trades in all of that for a meager increase of two more speed than I'd otherwise get - and distances in this game I usually see measured way up in, like, the tens of feet.

Of course, as I said I still have no idea what speed does for the player character, or how I, the player, am to use it.


Since I actually know what that one does. I think of it as pretty important, so the lower amount might be justifiable... but still, it's only a boost of +2 over what you'd otherwise get, and in exchange you get none of the HP or damage or anything.

For the both, eight at least sounds good, in my opinion - a 1:1 ratio, right. Going over would make mathematical sense, probably, to compensate for the loss of points elsewhere, but I dunno if it works from a design standpoint - since it's just two steps up to the current +12, where there apparently exists a problem.

Quick is still at +12, it didn't get changed at all. Only Sluggish got changed, which was the flaw that originally gave -12.

And no, only spells with secondary effects. For instance, Gust requires a check to see if it will knock the target on its ass. If all it does is damage, then it doesn't require any Resistance check.

 

[SirOni]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I should pay more attention to OOC's, looks like some stuff has been changed. Time to check up on it.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I updated Magic again. Summons now get the Unarmed Fighter Talent, so they do a lot more damage.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Incubus, esteemed individual that he is, PMed me suggestions for altering the weapons system. People who use ranged weapons, in particular, should take a look at this. Let me know what you think. Also, keep it civil.

Included is the whole PM, including his reasoning.

Spoiler

Alright, so I wanted to fix your weapons. Specifically I wanted to nerf firearms, but as I looked over things to try and find a good base power level to work off, I found a number of inconsistencies; one handed weapons out-damaging two handed weapons, throwing knives beating throwing axes in all elements etc.

Three hours later, I have the following. The general power level of all weapons has been reduced, which should result in longer fights. I've removed a number of weapons, ranged weapons have gotten a lot more pruning because there were just plain more of them. I've also knocked down the tech level of the firearms in particular.

I have removed the multi-shot in a round rule for ranged weapons, because the idea that an archer can fire faster than a swordsman can swing his blade is a little silly and because ranged weapons need to be slightly less powerful than melee due to their superior range. While modern firearms can certainly fire faster, the kinds of firearms that are represented here do not have the capability to hold more than a single round at a time.

My main goal behind the revamping was to ensure that each weapon has some advantage of being used. Both throughout the melee weapons, where two handed weapons are noticeably more powerful than single handed ones to make up for the loss of shield arm. Other weapons have effects and/or more reliable dice codes that may make them a more attractive option.

When it came to ranged weapons, I decided the best way to make crossbows and firearms both more and less powerful than bows (who specialise in direct damage) was to allow them to treat a target's armour as an amount less than it was. So while a bow in the hands of a warrior will likely out-damage crossbows or firearms, the latter will do more damage to heavily armoured targets. They're also good weapons for mages and spirit users as their damage doesn't depend on the body stat. Throwing weapons were the hardest due to their limited usage per fight, which should dictate a higher damage, but the idea of a throwing knife dealing more damage than a sword struck me as wrong. Thus, the weaker throwing weapons stack on effects. All of them have the advantage of being purely one handed, unlike any other ranged weapons.

Without further ado, my presentation of a patched weapon system:


-Melee Weapons-

Unarmed: 1d4+body/4
Unarmed Fighter: 2d4+body/3

One Handed Sword: 1d10+body/3
Bastard Sword: 2d6+body/3 (-5 to hit when wielding one handed)
Two Handed Sword: 2d8+body/3

Staff: 3d4+body/3 (two handed, +3 to dodge when wielding)

Maces: 1d12+body/3 (-5 to hit when wielding one handed)

Polearms: 2d4+body/3 (can attack from 5ft away)

Axe: 2d6+body/3 (-3 to hit, increases to -8 when wielding one handed, ignores 50% shield DB)

-Ranged Weapons-

Bows: 1d10+body/3 damage, Range 120ft, reload time: 0 rounds

Crossbow: 2d10 damage, Range: 100ft, reload time: 1 round, ignores AV 10

Hand Crossbow: 2d6 damage, range: 40ft, reload time: 1 round, ignores AV 10, can be fired (but not reloaded) with one hand

Repeating Crossbow: 2d10 damage, range 100ft, reload time: 2 rounds every 5 shots, ignores AV 10

Pistols: 2d6 damage, range: 40ft, reload: 2 rounds, ignore av 15

Musket: 2d6 damage, range: 100ft, reload: 2 rounds, ignore av 20

Sharpshooter's Rifle: 2d8 damage, range: 150ft, reload: 3 rounds, ignore av 20

Air Rifle: 2d6 damage, range: 60ft, reload: 2 rounds, ignore AV 15, gunpowder-less firing means almost silent, no cloud of smoke.

Shotgun: 2d10 damage, range: 20ft 90 degree cone, reload: 2 rounds, ignore av 20

Thrown Weapons - High Damage, short ranged, very limited ammo

Throwing Knives: 1d6+body/3 damage, range: 20ft, successful hit reduces target's speed by 2, set of 5, unlike most ranged weapons can be used entirely in one hand

Throwing Axes: 2d4+body/3 damage, range: 20ft, ignores 50% shield DB, set of 3, unlike most ranged weapons can be used entirely in one hand

Javelins: 1d10+body/3 damage, range 40ft, set of 3, unlike most ranged weapons can be used entirely in one hand.

 

[thetwo]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I like the melee rebalance, and I like the general idea of the balance for ranged weapons, but the base damage for firearms against unarmored opponents is too low. Ashley - a mage, with no martial talents - does as much average damage with an unarmed melee attack as she does with a pistol.

 

[OAMP]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

As one who is a primary user of the high end firearms, I'm not too enthusiastic. I could stand a nerf.

Edit: Upon reading more closely, I guess I'll be willing to try a few fights like this before rasing any serious concerns.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

As one who is a primary user of the high end firearms, I'm not too enthusiastic. I could stand a nerf. Am I correct in assuming "ignore 20av" is the same as the "+20" in the old write ups?

Nope. That'd be ignoring 20 points of Armor. Against an enemy with 0 AV, that adds two things: Jack and Shit.

 

[OAMP]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Nope. That'd be ignoring 20 points of Armor. Against an enemy with 0 AV, that adds two things: Jack and Shit.

I ninja'd that

I suppose my main question now is actually how armored are the things I've gone up against.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I ninja'd that

I suppose my main question now is actually how armored are the things I've gone up against.

There are maybe 3 enemies with more than 12 AV. At most. Most range from 0 to 8.

 

[Unknown Squid]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Gah, I want to read through this in detail and make comparisons and stuff, but just don't have the time today or the coming week.

At a glance, I see an issue with the overall damage nerf. Longer fights doesn't really sound like an improvement to me. The quick sudden nature of combat seemed to work well with the game and it's posting speed. A damage nerf only means that you will have to wait another week/half week to see the final result of any combat.

Also, it of course puts them at a fairly serious disadvantage to Casters now.

Some of the general rebalance concepts look good, but I'll need to take a moment latter on to look at it properly if I'm to say anything much more.

 

[SirOni]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Yeah, I kinda have a problem with the nerfing of the weapons too, though mostly firearms. And I agree with Squid, longer fights don't always make for a better and more enjoyable game. Especially when you spend most of the match unable to do anything due to being grappled. I do realise there's going to be times when people get screwed over in battles, and in the right circumstances drawn out fights can be an enjoyable part of the game, but if there's something that purposely altered to make the battles longer then I can see that becoming a big problem for most people.

But my main concern with the nerfing of firearms, and ranged weapons in general, is that characters built around ranged combat are losing out on their weapon focus of choice. Take Eleanor for example; she was trained from a young age in the use of firearms, primarily pistols, and as such she'd know how to improve them beyond how they were originally designed, both with damage output and ammo capacity. You may notice I used my character as an example but that's only because I know exactly how she was meant to be. I'm not saying that firearms SHOULD be given preferential treatment over melee weapons, what I'm trying to say is that if there is going to be a rebalancing of the weapon system there should be some kind of benefit for those who choose to take a weapon focus. On that topic, if there is going to be benefits from taking a weapon focus people should only be allowed to take one weapon focus because a) it would add more to a characters background (think of Eleanor again with her firearm training) and b) it would stop people just taking a load of different weapon focus'.

Anyway, that's just my two cents, take it as you will.

 

[Hafnium]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

There was an empty space here once, now there's a wall of text.

I'll preface with saying that this potential melee change doesn't really effect my character's killing potential at all. I lose a potential 4 damage from my top-end and have a lower average but Tamonten's damage tends to come from supreme might. Since I have 62 hit I can generally safely give up 12 of it to gain 24 damage (for a total of 2d8+52 damage with the changed weapons). If I'm against something that's a little easier to hit I could give up 20 of it and still have 42 to hit (with a total of 2d8+69 damage). If I didn't get Fel Might for the sole purpose of not using it (RP potential won out against min/maxing or I could have picked up a buff that doesn't drain health) I could activate it for 12 or so, then supreme might up to a potential 37 hit -> 74 damage safely, and do something like 2d8+118 damage (you mean nothing to me, tiny, tiny d8's).

This brings me into my first point, I don't really believe that fighting needs to be slower for warriors. I know I just listed how I could one-shot basically anything (and that's without using slay, the specific one-shot basically anything skill) but against large groups of enemies there's a lot of anythings to basically one-shot. It took 5 rounds for me to murder a group of 4 spiders, it would take longer if I hadn't reliably killed one for every round I attacked. With whirlwind I might have taken them down in 2 rounds (assuming they had around 40 hp) but might not have even been able to hit all the spiders. Not only that, not all warrior characters have a reliable AoE or Supreme Might. In comparison, however, a dedicated spirit character can fairly reliably incinerate a small army in a single round and not even have to stop for tea. The spirit user doesn't exactly have issues with dispatching single targets either. I don't think spirit users need nerfed, I'm just pointing out that I don't think warrior killing speed should be of much worry when compared to what spirit users can do. But hey, I don't have to worry as much about failed perception rolls and the surprise grapple rape that follows.

The big reason that I don't believe spirit users or warriors need a murderosity (it's a word in my mind!) nerf is partially because of the way the game operates. Assuming the thread's GM, usually Tassadar who has a sizable list of threads to update, can update once a day (hero mode GM!), a battle with 4 spiders for a warrior would currently take about 4 days worth of updates assuming the player just one-shot all the jerks one at a time and they never grappled or webbed successfully. If speed were nerfed to take an average of two turns per monster that would become 8 days. If the monsters didn't fail at grappling or using their special abilities then it would take longer than 8 days for a combat encounter. I think this would get boring for the players, the readers, and possibly the GM. In a more likely scenario where the GM's can't update a thread once a day it becomes even longer. This would probably get down-right frustrating for the person stuck in a battle. I will say that faster battle speed does have the negative side-effect of reducing the usefulness of cumulative buff skills like Pressure, though.

That said, I do like the idea of fixing inconsistencies like a one-handed weapon out-damaging a two-handed weapon. I also like the broad ideas for making each melee weapon worth using with fairly unique bonuses and the reduced melee damage doesn't seem crippling (but like I said, I have supreme might >.>). I can't really say anything about firearms and ranged weapons as I've never taken a close look at them, several ranged weapon users have already commented there though.

Edit: To clarify, while I can't comment on the specifics, I don't believe ranged users need a nerf either. It's not like there's a whole bunch of PvP in this game. Even where there is a chance of PvP it seems like it would come down to whoever went first, since nearly every character is capable of one-shotting other characters.

 

[Termite]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I dunno. Having absolutely no base-damage modifier means that a stealthy person who manages to hit a demon at point black range can theoretically only deal 4 damage with absolute shit for rolls. That just doesn't feel right. I guess you could justify it as the enemy suddenly detecting you approach and shifting at the last second, but that still doesn't feel right.

But then I looked at the talents and saw Sniper and that it can be taken multiple times. That would be how you would specialize a ranged weapon character. Nevermind.

 

[GargantuaBlarg]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

This is only a theoretical exercise, you're not implementing this into the current game, right? A radical change like this would likely throw characters waaay out of whack.


I don't think slowing down a PbP is a good design choice, what with their inherently slow pacing. I mean, I think mine's been going about forty days, and I'm not even out of the first scene yet. If it were a chatroom-run game, then maybe, but longer combat doesn't sound like a good change to make to a PbP.

As I understand the old damage values geared toward a very lethal game. I've never experienced it, but that sounds pretty fun.

Changing only weapons would unbalance the game, as all the characters are built on a certain understanding of the weapons. Badass warriors and snipers would suddenly lose a lot of lethality, and for the low-armor/HP types like snipers or assassins or whatever, going from "really killy" to "kinda killy" would fuck them over pretty hard.


The old weapons are kind of wonky - bigass zweihanders doing the same overall damage as knives (which are actually, statistically, regular swords), the assault rifles and semi-auto pistols and stuff in an otherwise-normal fantasy setting (very anachronistic, but fun so whatever), among other things - and could possibly improve with stuff like armor penetration and ranges and shit, but only if the entire system were overhauled, and that's not something that should be done in the middle of running.

 

[maikochan]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Speaking as someone who got off about two melee hits in the last game, and am now playing a character who should never ever make any kind of non-magical attack, I don't really have a preferance one way or another.

Still, I do agree with Blarg; If you're going to implement these changes, do so for the next incarnation, when you can stop and fiddle with other things at the same time and not mess up characters built with the current rules.

 

[Incubus]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

D: But the current rules for weapons are so bad it demands an immediate patch! Give people a chance to re-spec by all means, but dear lord...

 

[Hafnium]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Changing the weapons so much mid-game that they break builds seems pretty drastic to me. I don't agree that weapons are that bad (or bad at all, to be honest). That's basically suggesting that the game is so broken with it's current weapon system that it's severely hampering game-play and as such the the entire active weapon-dependent player-base has to rebuild their characters, an act that would also hamper game-play for a while. DG2 has been running for something like 46 days now? DG ran longer than that (I have done much lurking). Weapons in their current forms don't feel like they harm the game that much, even the one-handed swords that do more base damage than my precious, precious two-handed sword. >.>

If this were a more competitive or party-oriented game I would actually agree that a lot of things need to be rebalanced. But, since a majority of the players tend to have a 1-on-1 player to GM thread I don't agree that there really needs to be a supreme balance. There's not much gain from playing the biggest and baddest character with the way DG is run. I imagine the lack of metaphorical profit from min/maxing is why there aren't any 104 body orcs running around with 105 hp, 53 dodge, 52 speed, 52 resistance, and swinging for 2d4+174 blunt damage (+108 of that from giving up 54 of their 104 to hit).

Of course, that could have been mostly joking and I could just be having a derp moment! In which case I must be off to derp harder.

 

[OAMP]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I was satisfied with the one fight I had using the old way. I also really don't like to think about stats for stats sake, so...