The Ranting/Debate Thread

[Newbie]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Like I said, lesser of two evils.

Lesser of two evils is still evil. I'm not choosing between the better polished of two turds.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Lesser of two evils is still evil. I'm not choosing between the better polished of two turds.

Then be like me, and vote for a third party candidate who probably won't win.

 

[Newbie]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Then be like me, and vote for a third party candidate who probably won't win.

And that's why I'll be drinking that day!

 

[Chibichibi]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Saw this on Tumblr

This is how this shit works:

When a person of color says that they hate white people, they hate white people as an institution (aka white supremacy/hegemony)
When a woman says that they hate men, they hate men as an institution (aka male dominance/patriarchy)
When a queer person says that they hate straight people, they hate straight people as an institution (aka heteronormativity)
When a trans* person says that they hate cisgender people, they hate cisgender people as an institution (aka gender essentialism/rigid gender roles)



SO WHEN ANY OF THESE PEOPLE SAY THAT THEY HATE ANY OF THESE GROUPS, DON’T RESPOND WITH “NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE/MEN/STRAIGHT/CIS PEOPLE ARE LIKE THAT”. WE KNOW THAT. IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU PERSONALLY. IT’S ABOUT INSTITUTIONS AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THEY, AS INSTITUTIONS, OPPRESS US. SHUT THE FUCK UP.

And here we go, the whole convo:

Katie Gurecki: I am forever going to disagree with this. You can't have it one way. If someone says they hate ___, they hate blank. If it's not okay the other way, it's not okay this way. =/ Everything in life is a two way street.

Kara Stephens I gotta agree with Katie on this one. Double standards are what irritate me about a lot of things under this topic. If it's OK this way, then it has to be OK the other way.

Matt Blanchard I wrote out this huge post disagreeing with this post, but then realized. So far there are three white people disagreeing. So I'm not going to waste your time reading what I had wrote. Just think of it flipped, and how bad it'd sound.

Tasha Renee POC supremacy isnt a thing, female dominance isnt a thing, homonormativity(???) isnt a thing, and there are gender norms forced down our throats before we're even born. I'm not saying I hate the people, I hate the ideas. So I'm not gonna go around saying "I hate white people, I hate men, I hate straight people, I hate cis people." I'm just saying understand that there are some people out there who say those things but they don't hate the individuals, they hate the ideas, because they're tired of the oppression.

Tasha Renee Yeah, you girls understand the oppression of being females and everything, but think about people who have to deal with the combination of all of these things? I follow someone on tumblr who is non-white, non-cis, not-hetero. They have to put up with all of this shit on a daily basis. Lots of people who fall under that category get WAY more crap from the "norm" than necessary.

Tasha Renee Again I'm not saying I hate the people, I hate the ideas. White supremacy is some KKK bullcrap, patriarchy and heteronormativity are ancient ideas, and it's almost 2013. We seriously need to understand that you can't keep forcing gender norms on people, because it's extremely uncomfortable and honestly can make people hate themselves.

Tasha Renee Because of white supremacy, I hated myself for being black. Because of patriarchy, I hated myself for being a woman. Because of heteronormativity, people don't seem to acknowledge that asexuality is actually a thing. Because of gender norms, people kept telling me to act more "girly."

Tasha Renee I call bullshit on all that stuff.

Keshia Pitt Why am I utterly unsurprised that everyone disagreeing with that post is white.

Keshia Pitt Power differentials are a thing, people. Me saying I hate white people doesn't, you know, actually carry the consequence of white people being harmed. The other way around, however, is still very much true. Same with women and patriarchy, same with queer people and heteronormativity, same with cis people (and I'm cis myself) and gender norms. Ugh.

Keshia Pitt We say we hate you because we're tired of you hurting us and we're too busy protecting ourselves to sit and pick out every single white person who's "not like that" when most of you guys ARE, in fact, like that. If you're not like that then it shouldn't bother you.

Keshia Pitt Doubly disappointed that two of you are women, too, since when it comes to men and patriarchy you should know how this feels.

Keshia Pitt Cry me a river, write a sad poem in your journal about how upset you are that the mean black people are generalizing abusers that wear the same skin color you do, and move on.

Keshia Pitt Or better yet, educate yourselves and stop raising Tasha's blood pressure.

Kara Stephens And this is why I hate myself for being white sometimes. I can't have an opinion about something that disagrees with anyone of any other skin tone or I'm racist. I can't say what I mean to anyone because the race card gets thrown out.

I'm an Ambisexual White woman and you know what? I'm not feeling any of this male oppression you guys keep talking about. I didn't feel pressured by societal norms for sexuality growing up and I live in the goddamned bible belt! I felt more oppressed from the minority kids in my school who got away with /everything/. I was punched in the gut by a black kid and you know what happened? I paid him a couple bucks to leave me alone and I got in trouble for supporting a bully, but the little shithead didn't have anything happen to him.

When he did it to another little white girl and her mom complained to the school she was destroyed in the local paper for being racist.

There was a time in college when I politely asked this woman to move and what does she do? Turn to her friends about how Whitey Crackers are always trying to tell good honest folk what to do and that my people oppressed her people and I had no right to ask her to do anything. So I ended up on a rant about the Cherokee peoples (who I have some in my ancestry) that were forced on a march from their homeland, are still huddled on reservations and /still/ can't own their own freaking land. Then I was called a racist bitch from everyone around me before I turned and walked out.

THAT. THAT is the bullshit I hate. I hate this goddamn victim mentality that people have. Yeah, I've been pretty privileged my whole life, but my father just DIED a month ago and now I'm looking at losing my home and my car and pretty much everything else I own. But you know what? I'm not crying oh woe is me. I've picked myself up by my bootstraps and I'm taking out loans and figuring this damn thing out. I refuse to let anyone or anything beat me down. Women were oppressed for eons and you know what? I'm not crying foul. Neither are a lot of my friends going into fields dominated by Men. They are putting on their big girl panties and working hard to prove themselves. They don't sit in front of a computer complaining about the injustice of it all.

That's how it should be. Ok, so something shitty happened to you. Suck it up and move on.

Zeo, sweetie, I love you to death. I promise, but I can't just sit back and let people insult me because of what I look like.

Matt Blanchard How do you think it feels to be a while, straight guy?
Guess what, we still get discriminated against. Unless you've got money, people will discriminate you. I was the only white kid around growing up. Yeah, I went to a catholic school. Know why? Because my parents wanted me to have a decent education. Something the city's schools weren't good at. But enough about that part. Zeo, you've met me. Were you ever afraid that I'd try to do something inappropriate to you? We slept in the same house, ate the same food, etc. I'm going to guess you didn't feel threatened. Because you know me. So don't just assume everybody is out to get everybody. Some of us are just as tired of discrimination as you are. But I'm also tired of POC (and it's not just POC, it's many white people too) and both genders feeling entitled to anything. Nobody's entitled to anything, ever. You have to earn it.


Tasha Renee I don't assume everyone is out to get me. I'm saying I hate all of those ancient ideas of white supremacy and everything else that pushes me back. I'm a weak person. I've always been a weak person. I can't fight well like everyone else can.

Matt Blanchard Most of us hate it too love, seriously. I'm not going to say everybody does, otherwise it wouldn't exist. But you saw your big problem there. You're a strong person, and I know it. You just don't credit yourself enough

Kara Stephens I hate all the archaic ideas too, but "white supremacy" isn't really all that ancient. It's fairly recent, in all actuality. Well, recent being a relative term.

And I too, know that you're stronger than you think.

Keshia Pitt And then everyone proceeds to make this about their white guilt and white feelings instead of getting Tasha's point.

Kara Stephens I don't have any guilt actually. I haven't done a damn thing :'D

And yes, this is about MY PERSONAL feelings. I'm just pissy because you can't get away with making racist comments and no one calls you out on it. You, personally. Ma'am. Don't take this as a generalization.

Tasha Renee If I was strong I wouldn't still be hating myself after 23 years of being a black girl.

Keshia Pitt I'm just going to leave this masterpost here for all the ignorant white people in this thread because I have physics and biochemistry finals tomorrow and don't have time to babysit:

You must be registered to see the links

Kara Stephens Sweetie, you are strong. You just have to believe in yourself and shrug off what other people have said to you. Fuck them. Say it with me! Fuck the haters! I'm learning, slowly, that you just have to let the bullshit roll off. It's still hard for me after all the abuse I went through in school. Those people don't matter. The people who love you matter, ok hon?

Kara Stephens Mmm. Racism. It's okay when it's directed to white people :'D Thank you Miss Pitt for proving my point that hate is a two way street. I'm glad you've got strong opinions, that's awesome. But maybe that strength could be directed at equality and friendship instead of making people feel bad for who they are, mmk?

Keshia Pitt White people don't experience racism; also, get off your kumbaya high horse, thanks.

Keshia Pitt I'll talk to you later, Tasha!

Matt Blanchard First off, wait. White people don't experience racism? I'm...pretty sure you pointing out all of this is racism. Wait, here we go:

Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior. (So, by this. You saying that "we" are hurting you. White people are hurting you. That's..racist right?

also:
"We say we hate you because we're tired of you hurting us and we're too busy protecting ourselves to sit and pick out every single white person who's "not like that" when most of you guys ARE, in fact, like that. If you're not like that then it shouldn't bother you."

So that means it's cool if I say all black people are just as racist, or are abusive, because we're too busy protecting ourselves from getting mugged, etc to pick out every black person who isn't like that, when from the ones that I've met, most are like that. If you're not cruel, idiotic, etc. You shouldn't have a problem with me saying that, even if I don't believe it.

But you do, don't you? See how these double standard things go? I'm very sorry I don't know what it's like to not be white. But I do know what it's like to not be accepted, not feel like you're in the right body, etc. And trust me Zeo, love. Your skin color is only a big deal if you make it out to be. Hell, most of the time I forget you're black until you start posting stuff like this victimizing yourself as well as others. Most people, especially on the internet, don't see skin color. But people blow up on the ones that do, and just like everything else, it gets blown out of proportion.

Kara Stephens Well thank you for educating me. I'll just go say thank you to the next person that calls me a cracker and be thankful that I'll never experience hate for my skin color from anyone anywhere.

Tasha Renee Nobody. Is saying. Anything. To. Me. Looking into things daily, I have a much lower chance of getting anywhere because of who I am.

Tasha Renee Also guys, cracker =/= nigger. So don't act like you're hurt by being called a cracker.

Tasha Renee I'm done here.

Matt Blanchard A word is only powerful if you let it be. And while you might not think it's offensive, it is. Hell, being called anything can be offensive if it's said with hostility.

Kara Stephens Zeo, babe. I don't want to lose you as a friend. And I gotta say that being called a cracker /did/ hurt. I try my best to be polite to everyone i meet unless they give me reason not to and being called names... any kind of name in anger hurts me. How can you not see that?

And you only have a low chance of getting anywhere if you let it happen. Don't let it happen. Fuck the haters, remember? Who cares what anyone thinks of you. We /love/ you. I only want to see you happy again.

Tasha Renee Tell me this stuff when a black lady doesn't get fired because she defends her natural hair.

Matt Blanchard People get fired for shitty reasons all the time, not just black people. Not just mexicans, not just etc etc.

Kara Stephens That is an unfortunate thing that ONE asshole did. When that happens you pull on your big girl panties and find another job. I got fired for having the flu.

Katie Gurecki I like how I wasn't even addressing skin color when I was thinking about this, because you mention three things, too of which I fit. I've stopped trying to argue skin color. I get it, I'm white, so my opinion means nothing on the matter, (which is a racist thought if you ask me). But how about this? Hate is fucking hate. It doesn't go past that. If I say I hate men, then I am saying I hate all men. If I said, I hate men in general, and am tired of the oppression, bam, now I am saying that. I get hating an idea, but I also get that hate is a powerful thing. It's the fuel behind the oppression. Why the fuck would you try saying it's okay when it's the thing that is doing what you despise? If you have to hate anything, hate hate, not the haters. Hate racism, not racists. Sure, they are asses, but someone needs to take a step up. Judging someone on one small thing, an opinion, to me is just a small step from judging on their skin color, gender, or sexuality. So here, not even talking about skin color, just the two way street and redundancy.

Katie Gurecki Zeo, you are only limited by yourself. Just because less people have a job have in one field that are say, black and female, doesn't mean you don't have a shot. Don't be self defeatist. Maybe those low numbers are going to be the thing that leaves you needed. There's lots wrong with the world. But they don't change until people change them.

Helen Simone Williams So you actuall said, in actuallity, how "one person did one thing" and you went on some bullshit tangent about having a black bully.

And you are oppressed for being white and/or male

So basically

I'm seeing a lot of mess in one post that I'm not very willing to read because I'm not willing to hate strangers today.

Helen Simone Williams So, here's the thing, motherfuckers!

I lived in Greenwood, MS for a good deal of my life and 2 years ago a relation got lynched.

Last week I got called security on for being in my common room. He asked me, on the third floor of my key card locked dorm, if I lived there.

My school moved the lines to conveniently stuff me on the other side of town with a lot of other minorities. For the sake of their kids education.

Kara Stephens I said how quite a few people did quite a few things and the way to end this is not to hate people or institutions or colors who homes who countries or who gives a flying fuck what else.

The way to stop hate is not to hate more. The way to stop hate from coming at you is to stop hating. Katie made a great point, " I get hating an idea, but I also get that hate is a powerful thing. It's the fuel behind the oppression. Why the fuck would you try saying it's okay when it's the thing that is doing what you despise? "

I don't hate anyone. I hate ideas. I hate racism. I hate morons. I hate things that people do, not what they are. I wish that other people could see this too.

Helen Simone Williams I'm not even going to GET into how a family member of mine who is college educated and never had a police history and was a top notch citizen

Is going to probably serve up to 20

For a crime that only poor (minority) crimes would do.

Elizabeth Neff get that 'we all bleed red' bullshit out of here

Kara Stephens I thought this was about equality?

Helen Simone Williams My entire life is a series of racist-ass people,

Like you,

Scrutinizing people that don't look like /you/ and faulting them for being both that and "cryptic" (minding their own business.)

Elizabeth Neff hell yes its about equality but by saying 'oh we're all human' effectively erases poc suffering

Helen Simone Williams I dare you

Helen Simone Williams To call being ignored or resented

Helen Simone Williams The same thing

Helen Simone Williams As me and my lineage being jeopardized by breathing.

Helen Simone Williams Just so I can break out the cr- word.

Kara Stephens All people suffer. We all do. It's stupid to categorize people by how much they suffer. If I wanted to do that I could start yelling about the Palestinians or the Christians in Iraq or any number of other people who have lives that are horrible.

And I'm sorry that you hate me so much for having the opinion that all people are equal and we all suffer and we all need to pull our heads out of our asses sometimes. I'm sorry that you would like to hurt me just because I don't fit into the mold of what you like to see.

People are people are people. And we all suffer.

Elizabeth Neff no its not stupid to catagorize people by how much they suffer because some people suffer more than others.
and yeah, all people /should/ be treated equally, but theyre NOT and you need to treat them as such

Helen Simone Williams Break open a history book. Even if you watch the NEWS

You will SEE that someone is REPEATING Trayvon's case with someone FOR PLAYING MUSIC

You will SEE a police killed a handcuffed little boy and he said it was a suicide

I know they were said in passing, and written off as "incidents", but open your EYES.

Helen Simone Williams Are you stupid.

Helen Simone Williams You can't HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT PEOPLE LIVING AND DYING.

Helen Simone Williams You PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE ASSHOLE.

Helen Simone Williams We ALL SUFFER. My ass.

We all suffer and some people can ignore it because its CONVENIENT.

Elizabeth Neff ^^^^ this exactly

Helen Simone Williams How many racism or race courses have you taken.

Helen Simone Williams Gender and women's courses.

Helen Simone Williams GLBTQ courses.

Helen Simone Williams Have you been involved in civil rights?

Helen Simone Williams Has it occurred to you that ALL OF THOSE THINGS exist for a reason.

Helen Simone Williams I like how you came in here and effectively wrote off events as racist because they involved people of color.

Helen Simone Williams And then you drown out other people's concerns by saying they were isolated.

Kara Stephens I've been involved in many GLBTQ rights issues over the years since it came to my attention in high school. And I haven't taken any of those courses in college because I'm at a Tech school and they simply aren't offered. My education is centered around a job. being a Vet tech. Helping animals.

I haven't written off anything. It sucks. It truly does the things that have happened to you and the people you know. But it doesn't help to dwell on things. I've been told that over and over again by my psychiatrist. Don't dwell. Let go of the past. Work towards future goals.

I'm sorry that you think I'm a hateful person because I'm not. I love Tasha more than I can possibly say. If i could get her and rescue her from the life she's living in then I would. I want her to feel good about herself because she is a beautiful intelligent woman. I want desperately for her to believe that.

Helen Simone Williams Dwell.

Helen Simone Williams Motherfucker. The reason it sucks ass. Is because racism is a SYSTEM.

Helen Simone Williams It is people LIVING and seeing their celebrities whitewashed. It is having your accent being a joke. It's being written off as a fetish.

Helen Simone Williams It's LIFE.

Kara Stephens My accent is a joke to people too. But I guess it doesn't matter, does it?

Helen Simone Williams Y O U are dwelling. We are breathing and dying slowly. The only way we can "NOT DWELL" is by dying.

Helen Simone Williams Nope. Because google didnt dedicate a side of the site to it you derailing asshole.

Helen Simone Williams Tell me why there is no "white people" costume or "white" way to dress.

Elizabeth Neff how is an accent in any way comparable to racism

Helen Simone Williams But there are black accents, Mexican foods, Aboriginal American costumes...

Elizabeth Neff 'joke about' is completely different than being killed over

Helen Simone Williams THAT'S racism. Being able to dehumanized or write off PoC concerns or lives or whatever.

Helen Simone Williams This isn't bullying. I don't care about bullying. I've dealt with those.

Helen Simone Williams This is RACISM it can't be written off.

Helen Simone Williams Where are you going to go???

Kara Stephens Because "white" just like "black" is an inaccurate term for skin color with many nationalities and cultures attached to it. I could dress German. Or even Polish. Or perhaps I could look into the beautiful clothing from Namibia. Or even South Africa...See More

Helen Simone Williams To the friends that go on your status and tell you that you're wrong?

Elizabeth Neff south africa is white people tho

Elizabeth Neff and you can wish all you want but its still very hurtful to poc when you effectively erase all their suffering NOW (not back in the day but now)

Tell me if you need me to separate the names a little better, this came from facebook

There. Done with it. It's been deleted and I'm gonna go cry in a corner now.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

>White people don't experience racism.
Gee. Then maybe I don't have to worry about being violently attacked when walking through poor, predominantly non-white neighborhoods. Oh wait, I do, because a decent majority of people that have lived in poverty for most of their lives and have no prospects for the future see things along racial lines. It doesn't even matter if one is white, to be fair, as an asian or latino person going through a black neighborhood would be about as likely to suffer discrimination as I would. I'm not saying that racial violence is an everyday thing for me, but the fact that I have to avoid some neighborhoods because I'm white is no less racist than a person with more color than I being forced to do the same. Racism is racism, regardless of the target, though from the general mindset displayed by the person you're speaking to, they'd likely try to justify it with the poverty/discrimination-revenge argument.

 

[Chibichibi]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Part two

Helen Simone Williams You know damn well that that is different FROM A CONTINENT

Kara Stephens It was just an example, so was German and Polish. I'd like to try and find some traditional Egyptian clothing too, or Moroccan. And yes, I'm aware it is. I don't think there's any basis for separation here. We all wear the same things.

I'm not erasing anyone's suffering. I never said it didn't exist. It does. The hate exists and i wish people would grow up and treat everyone equally. We're heading into 2013 and Racism is something we has humans should have outgrown by now.

Helen Simone Williams And you know damn well people don't say "Nambian" print they say "African" print

Elizabeth Neff race =/= nationality

Keshia Pitt You're perpetuating racism right now, funnily enough.

Kara Stephens I apologise Elizabeth, you're right.

Elizabeth Neff no we dont all wear the same things. we're all incredibly different and we need to acknowledge that

Helen Simone Williams It was a shit example?????

Also white people made race a concept, so you're preaching to the choir.

Elizabeth Neff SO THE WHITE PERSON GETS THE APOLOGY?

Elizabeth Neff FOR REAL?

Keshia Pitt ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS SURPRISED

Kara Stephens You get an apology because I made a mistake in my vocabulary.

Helen Simone Williams Ok, you also missed the entire costume point.

Elizabeth Neff but youre not going to

Elizabeth Neff okay

Keshia Pitt white people only ever listen to other white people donchaknow

Helen Simone Williams Lol wyt ppl

Keshia Pitt She talked down to two POC in this thread and yet white Elizabeth comes in and says a few things and she gets the apology I cannot

Kara Stephens I'm not apologising for having an opinion. I'm not going to feel guilty because some people are douchebags especially when i was attacked the moment I said anything.

Keshia Pitt THREE POC counting her own firned

Elizabeth Neff opinions can be wrong dude

Kara Stephens I never Put Zeo down. I love that girl like my own flesh and fucking blood you leave her out of this

Helen Simone Williams Yeah and you're one of them

Elizabeth Neff you were attacked because you came in and made this post about yoUR WHITE FEELINGS

Helen Simone Williams We JUST said

Keshia Pitt Your opinion's racist and you're racist, unfortunately. And your racism's hurting your friend because you refuse to acknowledge that her self-esteem issues have EVERYTHING to do with racism.

Helen Simone Williams That you can't treat this like an opinion

Keshia Pitt She hates herself because RACISM MADE IT THAT WAY. A racism that YOU ARE PERPETUATING by erasing her experiences.

Helen Simone Williams It's dehumanizing to treat

Helen Simone Williams Dying people as an opinion

Helen Simone Williams AKA racist

Keshia Pitt You are putting Zeo down right now.

Tasha Renee Kara, I love you, but I honestly did feel like you guys were talking down to me as if my suffering as a POC is just normal human suffering. It's not the same thing. It really isn't. I asked these guys to help me because I can't seem to get the message across.

Keshia Pitt You are ignoring Zeo's experiences with race and racism.

Helen Simone Williams And it's sad

Helen Simone Williams Because baby honey

Helen Simone Williams I'm the big guns

Helen Simone Williams It's gotten this bad.

Helen Simone Williams CODE WHITE CODE WHITE CODE WHITE

Keshia Pitt We're here because we're sick of seeing white people dismiss our experiences and pain in favor of talking about their own. Which is what you and white person #2 and #3 did up there to Zeo.

Helen Simone Williams (It's funny because white people)

Tasha Renee I seriously want you to read this stuff and look into it. These guys aren't the only ones who are irritated with this chat.

Keshia Pitt You're a shitty friend.

Kara Stephens Zeo... Zeo, love. I'm sorry. I never meant to hurt you.

Tasha Renee C'mon don't call her a shitty friend. Just tell her she's made some mistakes.

Keshia Pitt Then maybe next time instead of hurting her over and over and over you could be a little less willfully ignorant?

Tasha Renee I still consider you a good friend but PLEASE listen what I have to say and stop shrugging off my experiences.

Keshia Pitt Fine. She made some mistakes which resulted in her hurting you. Which is, you know, shitty friend behavior.

Tasha Renee I lost an ENTIRE group of friends

Helen Simone Williams No make her feel guilty rub her nose in it

Tasha Renee because they told me I was overreacting to racism

Keshia Pitt And you're telling her the same thing - that she's overreacting to racism. Just like they did.

Tasha Renee So please just take the time to look at this and understand what we're getting at. This is what my friend posted and these are hundreds and thousands of voices that need to be heard

Tasha Renee but they're always talked down to

Tasha Renee

You must be registered to see the links

This is a resource post for all the Good White...
vasundharaa.tumblr.com
This is a resource post for all the Good White Person™s out there. You know, the...See More

Kara Stephens Zeo, I'll never stop being your friend. I love you. I'm sorry that it looked like i was making light of it. But I swear to you, i wasn't. I was just saying that it's not ok to hate the haters.

Keshia Pitt oh my god stop making excuses

Tasha Renee But that's the way I took it, Kara.

Helen Simone Williams Well bruh

Tasha Renee Like I said, I lost an entire group of friends because I overreacted to racism.

Keshia Pitt apologize if you're going to apologize and call it a day intent is not magic you were racist towards your friend and that's that

Helen Simone Williams Here's the deal

Tasha Renee I tried to explain to them how hurtful it was to me

Elizabeth Neff so you should be nice to people who kick you while your down every god damn day?

Tasha Renee I had a complete relapse and wanted to die

Tasha Renee they made me feel that bad

Helen Simone Williams Yeah.

Helen Simone Williams It's frustrating.

Helen Simone Williams The entire argument

Keshia Pitt And you did the same thing as people who drove Zeo to that. Congratulations.

Helen Simone Williams Was well, it's not only frustrating but EXTREMELY not ok to ACT like it is

Helen Simone Williams And express that vocally.

Helen Simone Williams And so, that's why what you did was wrong because

Helen Simone Williams It's not fair. If she is going to be born to this world, let her breathe as much as she can. That's all you really can do.

Tasha Renee I love you Kara Stephens, Matt Blanchard, Katie Gurecki, but they're right. You guys have made me feel exactly the same way. How dare I suffer because racism is a thing.

Helen Simone Williams She is not being wrong for being frustrated and acknowledging it and being /wary/ of people who treat her like shit.

Kara Stephens And I'm sorry that the meaning of what i was saying became totally misconstrued.

Kara Stephens But... this reaction? This was an overreaction. I need to go before I start backsliding myself.

Keshia Pitt No one misconstrued what you said. Just that what you said was racist.

Tasha Renee Hush guys, that's enough.

 

[Newbie]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

At least two posts regarding opinionated folks on race relations.

My immediate reaction was unbridled rage. I resisted posting in anger, and come now instead with a story, and hopefully a point:

I live in Miami. My father is white and my mother Cuban, though she doesn't look it. There are a number of supermarket chains in the city that cater almost exclusively to the spanish speaking population, and being able to find an employee that speaks english is in no way guaranteed. They tend to offer the smaller home appliances (toasters, coffee makers, what have you) at pretty good prices, as well as some stuff that's difficult to find elsewhere. This story takes place while the three of us were at one such store.

My father is very clearly white, but living in Miami has developed a taste for cuban coffee. We were there for a coffee pot and some coffee grounds. He couldn't get any of the sales staff to help him, and in fact had them actively talking shit about him behind his back in spanish, which he does not very well understand. My mother, however got it. She asked for something benign in spanish, which led to a shocked hush and quick, embarrassed directions to whatever it was she had asked for, and the rest of the staff suddenly became a great deal less shit-talky and more friendly.

The point being: Yes, minorities are discriminated against. But sometimes being the minority in a room is enough to cause it. Every one knows what it's like to be alone in a room, and most know what it is to have the room conspire against you for it. You were absolutely, and they were absolutely shitty.

Second point, no story: You don't have to like your friends friends.

 

[super_slicer]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

I got to the link about privelaged white people and... well, decided I'd rather not read about how simply by existing I'm the devil. Disregard the fact that I'm an egomaniacal sadist, I'm a white male that loves titties.

I have opinions on this, but no-one wants to hear them and I don't want a wall of neg-reps.

I guess what I really have to say here is that unless you've caused physical harm or some really extreme mental anguish to someone because they're different, then you have no reason to feel bad.

 

[Nunu]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

*twitch*...

The only way out... is to try... if you keep blaming people for your problems you will never find a way out. It doesn't even matter if true, no one can improve their life without trying and you will not try if you are blaming your problems on someone else.

 

[Wonderboy]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

OK... I was cursing out loud in the shop where I work while reading this... Ok firstly, as I am sure Cappy can attest, racism IS NOT only white people hating on black people. Secondly, hate breeds hate, and stating that you hate any general group of people (i.e. White people, or Australian people or whetever, not drugdealers) is ignorant and only serving to perpetuate the lines we are drawing for ourselves in the sand.

These people are so hung up on seeing hate, that it is the only thing they see. And even when showed love, (which you clearly showed in my opinion.) they see, and respond, with hate.

But then what do I know, I'm just another white guy...

 

[Cappy]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

....Wow, I missed this, and you guys should be glad. This is exactly the sort of moronic irresponsible STUPIDITY, that starts hate crime in the first place. I live in a place were white people are ignored politically, their RIGHTS are ignored politically, and they are targeted specifically by criminals because naturally, people with CENTURIES of experience and heritage in an urban background are simply better at surviving in that environment, and acquiring money.

Right now, black people are being persecuted in our country, JUST AS BAD AS THEY WERE BEFORE. But this time it's by MORE BLACK PEOPLE. And down in America, yeah, there's some discrimination against perfectly innocent folks who happen to black, I'm sorry for them, truly I am. I CAN FUCKING RELATE. The assholes who I can't relate to, are the people who use this as an EXCUSE, to advocate reverse-discrimination.

I've already made an argument about too much of a good thing being bad, and these rights rallies, feminist marches, and hallaballoo whoopedy doo is exactly what the fuck I was talking about. YES, GOOD HAS BEEN DONE, RIGHTS HAVE BEEN ACQUIRED, AND AFRICAN AMERICANS CAN FUNCTION JUST AS WELL AS ANYBODY ELSE WHEN THEY NEVER COULD BEFORE.

Now it's time to SIT THE FUCK DOWN, and stop RAISING A FUCKING RUCKUS ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WAS HAPPENING TEN YEARS AGO. And as for saying "OH, WHEN I SAY I HATE CISGENDERED, HETEROSEXUAL, WHITE, OR (x) IT'S BECAUSE I ACTUALLY MEAN THEIR ADVANTAGES AND REGIME FOR SUPERIORITY!"

.... ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!? If you want to say that you hate Discrimination, FUCKING SAY IT STRAIGHT YOU FUCKING BUNCH OF WHINEY FAGGOTS, YOU, YOUR RACIAL PRIDE MARCH, YOUR GAY PRIDE MARCH, YOUR FEMINIST RALLY, YOUR FUCKING EVERYTHING, CAN GO CLIMB UP A WALL OF DICKS, AND DIVE RIGHT ONTO THE END OF MY FUCKING DICK HEADFIRST, AND SUCK IT LIKE THE METAPHOR FOR EQUALITY THAT IT REPRESENTS!

PS: Racial Pride implies that you believe your race to be different, there-fore unequal to other races, and is INHERENTLY RACIST YOU STUPID SHITS.

Disclaimer: Everything I say about these events or people is intended towards the events or people that happen to advocate, openly or not, reverse discrimination or open bias against any particular race, gender, sexuality, or cultural opinion on gender-assignment; While I won't say I don't believe in stereotyping, I don't let it suck me into bias against individuals or groups. Yes, I am to a degree racist, sexist, and I also believe that the gender you are born as is the one you should stick with. But I don't hit people, or slander them when they don't agree with me, like the people I am referring to obviously do. I apologise for the outbreak, but this UNACCEPTABLE. Thank you.

 

[Chibichibi]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Exactly! It was like my opinions didn't matter and no one else's will unless they're agreeing. I'm sure if a black man had told them what was what they'd destroy him for "trying to act white."

I've heard as much from Tasha. She said she can't understand the black men and women that try to act white by ignoring the problems their brothers and sisters face every day.

I did manipulate her into seeing what they did to me. I'm not proud of the manipulation, but I'm glad I got her to understand what they did was just as bad as if it had been reversed. I explained to her that cruelty was cruelty, no matter who it came from.

I'm just depressed that she's the one who called for them to help her. ;_;

 

[Kusanagi]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Damn I'm late as shit.

First off, in the words of Christopher Titus, I'm whitey, and I apologize.

Secondly, there's racism, and then there's playing the race card because bad shit happened. People with common sense can tell the difference. Unfortunately, common sense is so damn rare nowadays it's like a super power or something. And if anyone thinks I'm directing that last sentence at them, you may not have common sense.

Thirdly, I was rejected from a private high-school because they had all the 'white' kids they needed, and were only interested in minorities. So I got to go to the shit school. And no, it wasn't shit because it was public, it was shit because it was shit. Didn't get a job after high-school for a few years because, again, whitey quota was already met at most all places. As far as college goes..... well, okay, only reason it was harder for me is because I wanted to go to a good school. I could have gotten into one college on a minority scholarship because the area it was in was predominately african-american and puerto-rican.
Anyways, point is, I have been discriminated against and denied opportunities because I'm 'white'. Which counts as racism. 'cept I don't get to call it that because I'm 'white', and 'whitey', historically, has been the pre-dominant asshole that discriminates against everyone else because they're the ones in power with the most power.

When a person of color says that they hate white people, they hate white people as an institution (aka white supremacy/hegemony)
-No, they should be saying 'I hate racism' if they hate the institution that supremecy/hegemony falls under. Saying 'I hate white people' means that they hate white people, because they feel like 'whitey' has more than them simply based on skin color. This has been true in history, but as of the last decade or so, not so much.

When a woman says that they hate men, they hate men as an institution (aka male dominance/patriarchy)
-All I'm gonna say, is the only time I hear women say they hate men, it's after some guy has been an asshole to them.

When a queer person says that they hate straight people, they hate straight people as an institution (aka heteronormativity)

When a trans* person says that they hate cisgender people, they hate cisgender people as an institution (aka gender essentialism/rigid gender roles)

-not touching the last two because it's very late and I am very tired and I am very afraid of fucking my replies to them up. In short, though, people need to say what they mean, not say one thing and expect us to know they mean something else.

One more thing: Yep. Hate is hate is hate.
Couple of quotes from Siddharta Gautama, who is considered the founder of Buddhism:
-Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.

-In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.


One MORE thing: remember, my opinions are based on my experiences. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Sinfulwolf]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Seems a lot of people like to shout racism as soon as something doesn't go their way. Working at the bar, as soon as I'd kick out someone that happened to be of a minority because they were too hammered or got in a fight, many of them would claim it was because I was racist. Once we were even called "Draconian".

They had nothing to back up these claims, as the usually white people they'd be fighting with would be kicked out too, and we always kick out white people for being too drunk as well.

Nice ploy to use, using a real issue that is still well and alive out there, but using it in a situation in which they are the ones in the wrong. That's just selfishness, and self-entitlement, not hatred on our part. Just on theirs.

And you know what? I'm white, but also female, so I know what being the focus of real discrimination is like. However, I always stand up to my female friends when they go "men are assholes". Hatred doesn't solve hatred, and hating the institution does not mean hating the members that may just happen to fall under its category because they were born that way.

And really, people always forget... sometimes you get treated like garbage not because you don't have a penis, or switched out your genitalia, or have a darker skin colour, or like to sleep with your own gender... sometimes they treat you like garbage because your simply a piece of shit.

 

[Cappy]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

And you know what? I'm white, but also female, so I know what being the focus of real discrimination is like. However, I always stand up to my female friends when they go "men are assholes". Hatred doesn't solve hatred, and hating the institution does not mean hating the members that may just happen to fall under its category because they were born that way.

Yes, although I would like to point out, as I have in the past, that although things may different in Canada, America, and the UK, there is plenty of racism directed at white people, and discrimination based on their position as a minority within certain places, such as but not limited to South Africa. And, although it is by and far much less prominent (And in a lot of cases much less drastic) than sexism and discrimination against women, sexism against men and biased treatment may happen more than you might think, particularly in the form of emotional abuse and misleading comments, and also sometimes in the form of abusing laws and rights originally meant to protect, in order to attack individuals.

But all the same I really liked the quote Kusanagi brought up, and it really only increases my respect for Buddhism even further, "Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." Kudos, Kusanagi. I must say though, tucking away a feeling of indignancy, and keeping a cool head in the face of bias directed at yourself or your particular group is... Difficult. Especially when nobody even acknowledges it at all. I've spent a large amount of my life feeling resentful and angry about my inability to function in my own country, and all I ever heard about was exasperated, exaggerated and overly publicised news from America about some confused white teacher trying to be friendly with his black students and use the same terminology. Meanwhile I'm ridiculed for being white to my face, not knowing Zulu, but knowing enough to recognize some of the derogatory parts.

I feel like if my racial group was more recognized in my country as a group subject to being at the butt-end of racism, I would not be feeling so resentful any more. At least the well-meaning people would be informed, and the assholes could be discerned and avoided more reliably. In closing, not letting open bias and discrimination claw it's way into your psyche is actually far more challenging than it might sound. ESPECIALLY when your family, friends, and even people you haven't even known for long all seem to harbor the same stewing spite and resent inside them. The biggest obstacle in the way of an objective viewpoint for me, is that while open bias and discrimination in America and other places is declining, it really only seems to escalate here. Will I have to move back to England because of it ten years down the line? It seems more likely to me every day.

 

[Sinfulwolf]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Something I forgot to mention in my previous post. That tumblr post that seemed to spawn all this, seems to be someone struggling to cover themselves after being called out on being hateful and spiteful. And I heard something the other day that reminds me of this:

"No one likes to be the villain. It's much easier to get support when you are the victim."

While the quote was not in relation to this particular topic, I still think it fits. People want to be as hateful as they can be, but don't want to acknowledge that they're part of the problem, so instead try to justify what they say behind a loose veil, and have their friends buy it.

It also seems very American and naive of the world outside of their borders. What if I wanted to say I hate black people, but don't mean the actual people but instead the institution? I'd get called out for being racist, but even people on this forum have been discriminated against for being white. Cappy has brought up a lot of points himself, as Kusanagi. But what about all those militia groups throughout various countries in Africa that starve, behead, kidnap children, and slaughter all in the name of whatever cause they say they're fighting under at that time? That can be considered as much as institution as "the white man".

I could go the same with the Chinese. "I hate Chinese" would get someone ostracized, even when the Chinese government blatantly treats their citizens like garbage in a lot of the rural areas.

There are many more cases like this around the world, but that Tumblr post just seems like a way to spawn more hate, whilst pretending to be a victim. "Because no one wants to be the villain."

 

[Host]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

-I- want to be the villain...

Not in this case, admittedly, but y'know, as a general rule.

Not much to say beyond yes, everything said by ULMFers on this matter reflects my opinion. Kudos on Chibi for doing the obvious thing and calling out the clear parallels with your friend's own mistreatment, though.

 

[Serifyn]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

'Binders full of women' sounds like a interesting concept for my next erotica.

Racism and Discrimination are tools of the ignorant, i personally make it a point of emphasis to identify Morons and Fucksticks in a delicate and even-handed individual basis.

 

[Serifyn]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Sorry to interrupt your "intelligent, well explained, thought out conversation" regarding human nature with my unacceptably generic and unimaginative interjections. You are clearly more qualified than i to make personal experience based blanket statements regarding human behavior and therefore i shall retire from this discussion and conduct my asshat ways elsewhere.

 

[Obsidious]

Re: The Ranting/Debate Thread

Sorry to interrupt your "intelligent, well explained, thought out conversation" regarding human nature with my unacceptably generic and unimaginative interjections. You are clearly more qualified than i to make personal experience based blanket statements regarding human behavior and therefore i shall retire from this discussion and conduct my asshat ways elsewhere.

It has happened to me more than once that I tried to contribute to a topic in a thoughtful manner that was in retrospective a little over the top and thus either ignored or laughed at. Something along the lines of "trying to act smart on a porn forum".

I may not be one of the most experienced members around, but my general impression is that ULMF is more often than not an off-topic forum. I do love these discussions and I wish that these rare occurrences would happen more often, albeit the topic needn't necessarily be so grave.

What I don't get on the other hand are the (few) people that just have to go around and ruin the fun. This is the internet, yes. You can't expect folks to always show their "sweet" site in an anonymous forum. However the option to just ignore posts you don't agree with - given they aren't offensive or something like that - OR to "politely" express your own opinion is a right everyone has, and should use.

What really grinds my gears however are people that try to rebuke others for speaking their mind - in such an ill-mannered and cowardly fashion as well.
This may be "just a porn forum" however methods like these is what defined the Nazi!

Now I may have just gone and taken it a little to far again. Let me just say that in my opinion Serifyn did nothing wrong.