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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

This is super nit picky but with this system is it possible to have the mesh to actually change shape if the resources are available.
Not only is it possible, it's actually quite easy.
You simply store the mesh changes as animation keyframes.
So it's not resource intensive at all.

There'd only a be need for one [Skirt] model.
No need for [Skirt], [SkirtDamaged1], [SkirtDamaged2] etc.
It's no different than a weapon-swinging animation really.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield



Still trying to get a perfectly round belly without fatter thighs.
The default preg morph is the one I'll use for the first version.
But I want a better looking pregnancy in the long run.
 
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KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Initially the game will have static facial expressions accompanying the dialogue.



In the long term, I plan to animate the faces similarly to how you'd see in StarCraft.
It's even possible to make a lip-synching routine. But that'll have to wait.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

I found some sample code for blending face and body animations.
It allows for ambient blinking and animates the expression separate from what the body is doing.



But like with so many other cool features, it likely won't be in the launch version.
Tinkering with it will be quite time consuming.
 
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KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

So I finally sat down and played some Artificial Academy 2.
While the graphics and animation are very nice, it's not a very satisfying experience overall in my opinion.
Like so many other Illusion games, you run out of things to see and do very quickly.



Two things I really hated: Pregnancy game overs & separate orgasm positions.
Why is it impossible for me to cum in a girl doggie-style?! That makes no sense.
They had a great selection of positions. Why make them invalid for climaxes?

Pregnancy game overs (and many other features) make harem-building very impractical.
And the normal "gameplay" is often just a chore.
If a game like Slave Maker can make menu-and-daily-schedule based gameflow work, why not a high-end 3D game?

Oh well... guess it falls to us to fill this gap in the market.
 

stuntcock42

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Re: Renfield

And the normal "gameplay" is often just a chore.
If a game like Slave Maker can make menu-and-daily-schedule based gameflow work, why not a high-end 3D game?
It's part of the design - is the player character simply a puppet which carries out the player's desires, or are they a part of the simulation? What happens when the player's motives diverge from those of their character? If the player wants to focus on the exciting and sexy moments in their character's life (note: the answer is "yes"), then how do we handle the routine day-to-day stuff? Do we just skip the boring parts and do exciting stuff constantly (e.g. Call of Duty), or do we include boring segments in order to modulate pacing (e.g. GTA IV), or do we try to include enough difficulty in the boring parts so that they serve as mini-puzzles (e.g. The Sims)?

----------------------------

Player-vs-character conflict is a useful factor to consider. SlaveMaker, for example, will occasionally tell you that your character is too tired to act. Corruption of Champions won't let you initiate sex if you're insufficiently horny. Upon encountering this sort of frustration/failure, the player can usually correct the problem in <60 seconds of gameplay, return to the scene, and view the desired outcome. In CoC, the player usually has Yes/No control over sex scenes, but this control is temporarily lost if the character gets too horny.

If the player character is part of the simulation then their needs become yet another resource to be managed - like Gold coins or Mana points. Obviously, this creates distance between the player and character (which is generally undesirable); if the conflict is large enough then the player may begin to hate their character. On the other hand, it tends to delay gratification (forcing players to "earn" each sex scene via gameplay) which can be a good thing. This approach can also improve replay value, since it rewards specialization - on your second playthrough (or NewGame+) you might setup your character with more Sex skills and fewer Combat attributes.

----------------------------

If the game includes "needs" or "drives" for the main character, then they must be correctly tuned to reflect both the game's intended pace and its intended tone. Fallout is an obvious example - your character needs water, so you must keep moving and you must scavenge supplies from the wasteland. These goals are aligned with those of the player (see the world, meet new people, kill them and take their stuff) so the system works. The player character becomes a non-entity; just a mask for the player's own role within the game world.

NWN2: MoTB used a pseudo-vampirism system to induce tension. The game engine allowed the player to Rest almost anywhere, which made combat too easy. The vampirism mechanic punished/discouraged Resting, which increased the combat difficulty. It also confronted the player with small moral choices at regular intervals: do you feed your addiction, or do you abstain and suffer withdrawal? The player's goals (explore every corner of the map, kill everything for EXP, loot every chest, hang around in town completing every quest) conflicted with those of NPCs ("please stop devouring souls", "please leave our town ASAP") and those of the player character ("let's hurry up and resolve the main plot before this curse destroys me"). The player was forced to consider the main character's impact on the world, which added emotional weight to their interactions with plot-critical NPCs, and foreshadowed some of the major moral choices which the player would be called upon to make.

----------------------------

AA2, by contrast, aims for a "player=character" approach with minimal conflict. Barriers between the player and their goals are mostly external: the girl you're wooing may not be interested; other characters can intervene to cockblock you; the current location may not offer any privacy; most outcomes are determined by invisible dice-rolls; the clock itself will limit your opportunities. You might be stymied because you're character isn't able to do something (e.g. not enough Charisma to seduce the cheerleader) but never because your character is unwilling to follow your orders. Your character has perfect sexual stamina and every sex scenes will last exactly as long as you want it to. If you completely abstain from sex and just play "Studying and Afterschool Sports Simulator" then your character will never complain.

This question might have some impact on the Renfield design when you start sketching out the player-choice scenarios. Should the player's character refuse to rape a defeated opponent, in spite of the player clicking Yes, because "No thanks - I'm not into dudes" ? If the player is trying to lose a fight (because they want to see the resulting GoR scene) does the character express disappointment and/or resistance? Perhaps this feature could be accommodated using the text-variation code that you demonstrated a few pages back - a reluctant character might toss in a few more "No!"s among the grunts and groans. Some players might even prefer to see their female characters showing resistance, while others might like the idea of an initially-resisting heroine who can be corrupted into becoming a total slut.

If female-protagonist stuff is unfamiliar to you, then you can probably do some more rudimentary "market research" via DLSite tag statistics. Or you could just setup an informal poll on ULMF and ask people for their opinions.

----------------------------

I just remembered another great example of unintentional player-vs-character conflict. Dwarf Fortress. This is a simulation game focused on city-building, but it also includes a single-player adventure mode. Every character within the game has a system of thoughts, emotions, desires, and relationships (family, friends, rivals, leaders and followers, etc). Due to a programming mistake, the player character is included in this simulation. The player is in complete control of the player character at all times, but if you carefully Examine your character at particular moments you might notice that he's weeping in remorse and horror at all of the terrible things that he's seen.

At the end of a tough fight, you might think "I just slaughtered a giant werewolf! I'm a total badass!" But then you look at your character and realize that he's in post-traumatic shock and that he would have run away from that fight if he was actually in control of his own actions. "I just forced a terrified peasant to fight for his life against a giant werewolf! I'm a psychopath!"
 

afa

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Re: Renfield

I feel like the character vs player is an nearly unsolvable problem in particular for these kind of games with sexual content.

The whole getting GoR scene by to doing poorly purposely or making the game butt fuckingly hard in order to make the scenario "legit" in itself is an issue.

Player choices vs character choices is another conflict. In the recent years the general consensus is that open ended/player choices are desirable features, but it is not always possible to develop a scenario where we get to satisfy both the player and the character, doubly so for hgame where "scene hunting" becomes a player goal more often than not.

I think that's why we still see a lot of linear/semi linear hrpg with corruption mechanic because they are the only ones that is reasonable to implement.

And for the pregnancy model, will there be different stages or different "size/type" of pregnancy?
 
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KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

And for the pregnancy model, will there be different stages or different "size/type" of pregnancy?
There are 9 phases of pregnancy.
One stage for each month.
Her belly will gradually swell.
 
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KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Player-vs-character conflict is a useful factor to consider.
In mainstream games, few things are more hated than loss of control.
Any WoW veteran will have horror stories of being endlessly stunlocked in pvp or wiping in a dungeon due to a Fear spell aggro'ing enemies.

H-games are often the opposite, especially in Female POV games.
"Let's see what it looks like when I lose to this enemy."

Overall, I plan to use character control overriding very sparingly.
You'll almost always have some control or choice.
Your physical and mental condition will affect the choices you have.
If you're bound hand and foot, you'll have less choice.
If you're drugged or brainwashed, you'll likewise find your options impacted.

I'm aiming for a system like in Mass Effect 2 with the Paragon or Renegade options.
It not only shaped the normal dialog options, but allowed for these "interrupts" that were only available if you had enough Paragon or Renegade points.
But it would be significantly more complex than that.

Actually, I'm thinking of revamping my emotional system based on Artificial Academy 2's selection of personalities.
Example: Your character could have 4 Lively points, 2 Energetic & 3 Uptight
That would be a lot of hidden values, but it would allow scenario writers to have plenty of room to maneuver.
 

Yes

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Re: Renfield

In response to the last 10 or so posts, Good Stuff!

Have you considered opening up some sort of prostitution questline(s). It depends on whether you want the tone of the world to be. ie I think that the protagonist being in a world where surviving itself is difficult for some people, and it being a hard life could really open up more opportunities without detracting from a sense of realism.

Say you need to buy food to survive (or in the case of a game need food to avoid a serious debuff). You also need to pay for somewhere to sleep. Money saving becomes a minigame, and questing provides you with some income. In skyrim money was (pretty much) useless especially after a certain point. Personally i dislike parts of h-games where the protagonist is so easily manipulated by people for sex, but imo surviving is valid excuse.

I can think of a few scenarios where it could benefit the game

- You have no money or very little and no place to stay and have to share a bed with someone who offers, but assures you of no hanky panky. Gives the player a choice of whether to trust this person and cue said hanky panky maybe based on a random event.
- You have no money to buy food and person offers you a deal in return for sexual favours. Could be progressive based on how often you accept light fondling, something else humiliating, sex etc.
- Could be quest related, knowing that you need money a person promises money if you retrieve an item for them that could potentially put you in a lot of danger. Player has to decide whether risk outweighs reward of money.
- Maybe straight up prostitution.
 

Justsomeguy

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Re: Renfield

I'd just like to take a moment to give stuntcock a huge message of appreciation for taking the time to deliver consistently well thought out and insightful posts on the ideas behind this game and game development in general. To be quite frank, I just read through this whole thread caring less about the game and more about reading those thoughts about game design from stuntcock. I've had similar thoughts myself about some of the mechanics talked about, and it's great to see someone willing to put forth the effort and the passion in making all of these posts. I know I've done my own, elsewhere, on completely different topics! And as such, I know that although it's mostly its own reward to make such insightful posts, it still helps to know that they are appreciated. So here's my post telling you that they are!

Seriously. People who want to make games. Read those posts. They are good shit.

Do it.

Now.
 

Yes

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Re: Renfield

I'd just like to take a moment to give stuntcock a huge message of appreciation for taking the time to deliver consistently well thought out and insightful posts on the ideas behind this game and game development in general. To be quite frank, I just read through this whole thread caring less about the game and more about reading those thoughts about game design from stuntcock. I've had similar thoughts myself about some of the mechanics talked about, and it's great to see someone willing to put forth the effort and the passion in making all of these posts. I know I've done my own, elsewhere, on completely different topics! And as such, I know that although it's mostly its own reward to make such insightful posts, it still helps to know that they are appreciated. So here's my post telling you that they are!

Seriously. People who want to make games. Read those posts. They are good shit.

Do it.

Now.
Hear Hear

I'm pretty sure klepto appreciates any contribution to this thread especially people who think about game design regularly.
 

YummyTiger

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Re: Renfield

I'd just like to take a moment to give stuntcock a huge message of appreciation for taking the time to deliver consistently well thought out and insightful posts on the ideas behind this game and game development in general. To be quite frank, I just read through this whole thread caring less about the game and more about reading those thoughts about game design from stuntcock. I've had similar thoughts myself about some of the mechanics talked about, and it's great to see someone willing to put forth the effort and the passion in making all of these posts. I know I've done my own, elsewhere, on completely different topics! And as such, I know that although it's mostly its own reward to make such insightful posts, it still helps to know that they are appreciated. So here's my post telling you that they are!

Seriously. People who want to make games. Read those posts. They are good shit.

Do it.

Now.
I hope you show the same appreciation to those game designers who you are telling bluntly to read his posts. I appreciate constructive feedback and am exceedingly glad that people are putting the time to offer it, but posting on a forum takes the tiniest fraction of the time that designers like Klepto are putting into game making with just as little appreciation.

I am not saying that you are not showing that appreciation, just stressing a point. Mentioning that you were more interested in a couple brainstorming posts more than the game in question and ordering game designers to read those posts just rubbed me a little wrong. Of course, I may just be misinterpreting the post, in which case I apologize.

Anyways, eagerly awaiting the next update on progress. The foundation you are building Klepto sounds amazing.
 
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KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Yeah Stunt's contribution has been very helpful.
Feedback of any kind is quite encouraging, but such well thought out responses give me a lot to consider.

-------------------------------------

As for prostitution content, I'll definitely add it sooner or later.
It's such a popular theme that I just can't afford to omit it forever.

However it's never been a theme that appealed to me personally.
Most games have you up to your eyeballs in gold, silver and gems.
From a roleplaying perspective it's hard to justify sleeping with a stranger for money when you can just kill a few mobs.

A powerful heroine likely wouldn't need to sell her body at some brothel in Flea Bottom.
You run a risk of severe immersion-breakage.

Case in point: Prostitution mods for Oblivion

"OMG! It's the HERO OF KVATCH! You're AMAZING! Bards will sing for centuries of how you dived fearlessly into a
portal to Oblivion and trekked through that hellish, otherworldly landscape and singlehandedly slew an army of demons and
rescued the last living heir to the Imperial Throne. This is SUCH an honor meeting you like this. I feel like part of history
just standing here next to you! ... ... ... *ahem* Well... anyway... 50 gold to tap dat ass?"


But there are all kinds of situations where a strong, beautiful woman could exchange sex for various things.
So we can definitely accommodate.
Come to think of it... I've been playing Civ 5 recently.
Maybe something interesting could happen when you click on the "What will make this deal work?" button.
 

afa

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Re: Renfield

Well does the character really have to be powerful or be portray as such?
Fame could also be something that is work towards through deeds, meaning character might start as a no body and then work to gain fame. In Oblivion's case Prison > Hero of Kvatch > Champion of Cyrodiil. There is also to option to ignore the fame aspect or downplay it.
Hero can still be mortal, even someone who is powerful doesn't necessarily have to be unstoppable. Portraying of strength power or weakness is something the game itself can direct. Mainstream game tends to depict a power fantasy sort of deal. This game can take a different approach.

As for prostitution ties in, again the character does not have to be powerful. The working towards fame narrative could put the character in a situation where she needs a boost near the beginning. Heroism and fame can also be use against a character through blackmailing and helping someone in needs. There's also the whole the more pure and beautiful something is the more satisfying it is to corrupt.

Money balancing however is something else. Some HRPGs do it by inflicting a huge sum that is unreasonable or difficult for the main character to acquire through normal means and introduce prostitution as an option. It could also exist as something in the background or a side quest that the character can engage in given the correct context.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Money balancing however is something else. Some HRPGs...
Usually when a female POV H-RPG has prostitution I avoid it.
I just don't like my protagonist getting fucked by a bunch of dirty Johns.

There was however one game where the main character was a woman with a sword up her arse the whole time.
Can't remember the name of it.
Anyway, the prostitution in that game paid so well that you'd be crazy not to do it.
It was basically a casino disguised as a brothel.
You could score a completely game-breaking amount of money.

again the character does not have to be powerful.
A new character might work at an ordinary brothel for some quick cash.
But I think a more high-class atmosphere would be interesting as well.
I'm thinking about geishas or temple prostitutes.
Or maybe concubines and highly-trained pleasure slaves.

There's a lot of possibilities far and above the "conventional" hooking themes that we see in H-games and H-mods.
Like I said before, prostitution is such a popular theme that I'll be obligated to put it in sooner or later.
Still, there are many sex-as-a-commodity situations that aren't fully explored yet.

Also, this discussion reminded me of this scene from GoT:

"You are the Mother of Dragons? I swear I fucked you once in a pleasure house in Lys."
"Mind your tongue."
"Why? I didn't mind hers. She licked my ass like she was born to do it."
 
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KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Good news.
I've figured out how to use the XBOX 360 controller for Renfield

 
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KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

An interesting way to combine mouse and joystick just occurred to me.
The joysticks on your controller would control your movement and turning,
but the mouse could be used as an alternate control for your hands.



Normally if you wanted a particular dagger from this pile,
you'd have to turn your head and align your crosshairs on just the right one.
But looting/moving items would be easier if your mouse cursor could interact with them.
Left click to pick up, right click to push/pull/drag.

Mouse movement wouldn't cause your character to move or turn.
It seems like a much better way to loot a cabinet, table or chest of drawers.
 

stuntcock42

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Re: Renfield

An interesting way to combine mouse and joystick just occurred to me.
I'm tempted to file this entire post under "misfeature."

A gamepad is ideal for a skill-based game which demands complex button sequences under split-second timing (e.g. Super Meat Boy, or any fighting game). It's a great option when your game is meant to be kinaesthetically engaging - when the activity of simply pressing buttons helps the player understand the player character (e.g. MGR: Revengeance, God of War, Assassin's Creed) or become immersed in the experience (e.g. Guitar Hero). These factors don't seem to apply to Renfield.

Implementing a gamepad+mouse control scheme would be silly. Many of your potential customers don't actually own a gamepad and wouldn't benefit at all. If they do, then the game would force them to frequently break flow by moving their right hand between gamepad and mouse. In practice, you'd need to design your UI so that it works with gamepad-alone, gamepad+mouse, and keyboard+mouse. This will annoy some of your customers (c.f. PC gamers who were upset at the console-style menus in Skyrim) and it will force you to compromise between the three control schemes so that the user experience never feels quite "right" regardless of which device the player has in hand.

----------------------------

The initial pitch for Renfield was "fantasy sandbox RPG with sex." You've used the TES games as a basis for much of the discussion. But it also seems that you'd like to include a really engaging combat system (a la Dark Souls) into your game, hence the focus on gamepad support. In my opinion this would be a mistake.

Combat in Skyrim wasn't especially fun. The swordplay mechanics weren't complex enough to build any Youtube-worthy combos; the interplay between offensive and defensive magic was rudimentary; stealth and kiting were overpowered; none of the boss fights (except Miraak) were mechanically interesting; the difficulty curve would get screwed up if you leveled too many non-combat skills; teamwork or tactics were absent so any multi-person battle would devolve into a clumsy melee full of friendly fire; the whole combat experience tended to be very bland and repetitive. What Skyrim combat did well was to recognize and acknowledge player choice. Warrior, Thief, and Mage playstyles felt very different, and there was plenty of room for hybrid styles. If you specialized in Restoration and Shields then you'd be very hard to kill (although the fights would take forever). If you were willing to spend hours brewing poisons then you'd be able to trivialize many of the boss fights. If you had decided that such approaches were in-character for your guy, then you'd feel hugely vindicated to perform them within the game.

To summarize: Bethesda decided that combat was a necessary part of their game, but that their core engagement factor was [exploration | awesome visuals | character development | fantasy world immersion | story-telling | Skinner box looting and leveling | whatever]. They made the combat good enough to support the core features, and then they stopped. The remaining resources were dumped into [level design | voice acting | modding tools | more sidequests | performance optimization | marketing budget | whatever].

----------------------------

Innovative camera-controls and looting UI aren't necessary in an H-game. You may be able to come up with an awesome interface which makes total sense to you, but that's the sort of thing which requires extensive alpha testing to ensure that it's intuitive and useful for your target audience. That's no problem if you're working in a AAA studio; it's tricky for a solo project.

Fun combat isn't necessary in an H-game. A huge number of commercially-successful H-games have gotten away with godawful grind-filled menu-based ATB combat. In order to make combat truly fun you need to sink a lot more resources into development and (especially!) testing. You're also forced to put more effort into enemy abilities and AI scripting; it's no fun to dance around an opponents with skillful combos if the enemy's only response is "I have a million hitpoints. I hope that you brought a sandwich, because you're going to be here for a while."

If you actually overcome the issues mentioned above, then the combat focus will potentially add workload for modders (and remember: modding was a huge factor in the popularity and ongoing sales of the TES games). In addition to creating a backstory and a dialog tree and a 3d model for my new villain, and then coding in some sexual interactions, and mapping out her secret volcano-lair, and scripting the various quest hooks, I now need to devise some interesting combat mechanics for her as well! Telegraphs? Minion adds? Interruptible self-heal? Knockback into environmental hazards? A bullet-hell sequence with destructible cover? Perhaps an "enrage" phase if you damage her clothing too much? And then I'd need to spend hours testing and re-testing the bossfight to ensure that the mechanics work correctly, and that the difficulty tuning is fair, and that she doesn't get stuck on the level geometry, etc...
 
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