Feminism!

[Sinfulwolf]

Re: Feminism!

your forgetting the pair who knew what it was and signed anyway.

Two people who want to take away rights does not make it right.

I like to vote, I like to be able to do my job and have a say in who I fight, bleed and kill for.

 

[Zoto]

Re: Feminism!

It seems everyone pretty much agrees.

Personally, I think that what needs to be smoothed over are the rough edges. We have pretty much solved the main problem, women not getting jobs, and treated inferior to the man, as in treated like an accesory, and not as much worth on a value measuring level. Disposable if you will, but that time is long gone. The problem lay in wether or not an applicant had teh neccesary requirements for the job, not if it was a guy or a girl, or black or white.

The shackels are already unlocked, the only thing that remains is to shake them off. "I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."

 

[Incubus]

Re: Feminism!

There are two big issues in workplace equality that I don't think are going away anytime soon

Pregnancy leave remains a big issue in workplace equality.

Simply put, a woman can take months away from work because she's having a child, and still expect to come back later because she's having a kid and have her job still held open for her. Fair enough? Your call on that one. Frankly, having to pick up a temp for that time or go without them is an absolute pain for companies, and the kind of leave a father gets by comparison is a lot less (understandably so). It's a controversial issue that I don't see resolved.

I know my government was talking about enforcing so that all employees would pay a portion of their wages into a fund to cover their pregnancy leave. Yes, all employees. Male? Too bad. Don't want kids? Bad luck. Male who doesn't want kids? Hah, you're getting screwed. This one I'm adamantly opposed do, falling into the last category; I don't like the idea of losing money from my paycheck like that. And of course, complaining about it only yields abusive responses from people.

The second one is high level executive positions. Now, what you have to realise is the people in those positions are pretty much working themselves to death. They're more or less expected to devote their entire lives to their jobs and end up doing ridiculous amounts of overtime just to meet the standards set down. This is why there are so many rich fathers estranged from their family in the media; it does happen and it does happen a lot. This kind of life consuming job requirement is fundamentally unappealing to anyone who wants to raise children, which will cut down on the number of women in these positions.

Which is why every time I hear about a big outcry about the lack of women in high level executive positions, I sigh and facepalm. 'We need more women in high paying executive jobs that can offer flexible hours and time to raise the kids but aren't paid less than the males in those roles?' Not asking for much there, are we?

 

[Nunu]

Re: Feminism!

Two people who want to take away rights does not make it right.

I like to vote, I like to be able to do my job and have a say in who I fight, bleed and kill for.

i didn't think i'd need to point this out but i was being silly.

It seems everyone pretty much agrees.

Personally, I think that what needs to be smoothed over are the rough edges. We have pretty much solved the main problem, women not getting jobs, and treated inferior to the man, as in treated like an accesory, and not as much worth on a value measuring level. Disposable if you will, but that time is long gone. The problem lay in wether or not an applicant had teh neccesary requirements for the job, not if it was a guy or a girl, or black or white.

The shackels are already unlocked, the only thing that remains is to shake them off. "I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."

i think saying this doesn't do justice to some of the problems women still face in the workplace, and complacency will only take us backwards. true, feminism has achieved its goals and should be neatly tucked away with all other past political reforms but we should not forget what it taught us.

 

[aika]

Re: Feminism!

also aika be a bit more careful in your wording, men are GENERALY more physically capable (lest ye forget darkfire).

>generally
>on the whole

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[maikochan]

Re: Feminism!

Speaking as a guy who was raised by a single mother and had a single, female sibling (I'm not really a paragon of masculinity obviously), I have learned that women and men are different. Very different in some ways, almost the same in others. To use an analogy, you have apples and oranges. The oranges are lobbying nature to make them more like apples, which nature does by making them both edable. Thus, apples and oranges are equal in that they're both edible, but they're still different and fufill that role differently. Now also keep in mind that each apple is different from eachother and each orange is different from eachother. Is either fruit more privilaged than the other? I say no. Is either better than the other? I say, each has different strengths, oranges are tangy and sweet, a taste combination that appeals to me, but need to be peeled to be properly enjoyed (tangent: that's my personal preferance, I have a friend who eats oranges like apples, rind and all.) while apples are crunchy and also sweet, which is another combination I like, but not as much as oranges, however apples don't need to be peeled for me to enjoy, so I'll generally take them over oranges (cause I'm a lazy ass), but I still enjoy oranges as a nice treat.

So to stop rambling about my fruit preferances and bring it into context, I believe both men and women are inequal, and can never be equal, but that neither is in any way "Better" than the other. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and there are always exceptions. To the topic at hand, I believe that Feminism, along with just about all social constructs such as politics or religion, is a concept that should never have been made, and just makes a mess of things. This doesn't meen I'm anti-feminist, on the contrary, I would welcome a world with a majority of females (and actually, it would make more biological sense when I think about it... a few number of males can impregnate a large number of females, so from an evolutionary standpoint, there should be more females than males in a species... but I'm getting off topic). This also meens I'm not an anarchist or athiest. I just don't really care about these things. I don't think we really need them, but they seem to be rather entrenched in their current posisitions.

Which brings me to the women in workplaces angle. I wish I had a time machine so I could travel two or three generations into the future and see what the workplaces are like there. As the large majority (I think, I could be wrong) of upper management personel in those nameless large corporations that everyone talks about are 50+ year old males, and 50 years ago, there was a different social belief than now, these old guys are still stuck in their beliefs and resistant to change, just like everything (Thank you Newton). However, nobody lives forever, eventually these fartbags will be replaced with a new generation who grew up with different social rules so that, gradually, we'll see things change, maybe not in one generation, maybe not in two generations, but in a few, I believe there will be change. A lot of consolation that does the me-me-me, now-now-now yuppies complaining. I don't believe things can change so drastically in the course of a few years or even decades. If you consider that, 1000 years ago (give or take a few centuries, I'm not a history major), women were essentially slaves and that was the social norm, now they've got social status far higher. Maybe in another 1000 years it'll be the men who are subjugated, but really, does it matter now? Not really.

To make a long post short, everyone is different, shut up and deal with it. Things arn't going to change overnight, shut up and deal with it.

(Also, I'm abstaining from voting on this topic because... hmmm... because I just don't want to. Nya!)

(EDIT: Actually, because rereading the choices, I don't actually agree with any of them. So there.)

 

[Newbie]

Re: Feminism!

Marginally

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, though on the wrong end of it.

 

[thetwo]

Re: Feminism!

Feminism is certainly something that can be taken too far, and indeed is taken too far by some women (and men, for that matter). You don't correct sexism with more sexism in the opposite direction.

That said, I wouldn't say feminism as a whole has gone too far. There is still sexism, there still isn't equal pay, and laws requiring parity in hiring are still necessary (because there are still people who would outright reject women if they could). Things are better then they used to be, but they aren't all the way there yet.

I believe both men and women are inequal, and can never be equal, but that neither is in any way "Better" than the other. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and there are always exceptions.

While true, I don't think this works properly as an argument against equality laws. The problem becomes the fact that it is (generally speaking) men who has which strength. If they were all fair, that would be fine. But there are still plenty of sexists around, so it isn't.

One could look at it as the same sort of root problem as polygamy. On the face of it, I would support legalization of polygamy, since I don't see any inherent reason why it should be forbidden. In reality, I'm strictly against legalization of polygamy, on the basis that in practice what happens is abuse and subjugation (mostly of women). Personally I apply the same argument to banning the burqua in some circumstances... but now I'm *really* off-topic.

In short, an ideal society wouldn't need laws forcing people to hire women just to get their numbers up. In reality, in our culture, we do need such laws.

 

[Sinfulwolf]

Re: Feminism!

If you consider that, 1000 years ago (give or take a few centuries, I'm not a history major), women were essentially slaves and that was the social norm, now they've got social status far higher. Maybe in another 1000 years it'll be the men who are subjugated, but really, does it matter now? Not really.

Well, that all depends on which culture you look at. The Spartans, while keeping their women as mostly house wives, still looked at them with respect. There were a few cultures within the British isles that were even matriarchal. Look at Boudicea who led a rather courageous attack against the Romans, her people both male and female followed her. Then we see the Egyptians who had their share of queens, the most famous being Cleopatra.

 

[maikochan]

Re: Feminism!

In short, an ideal society wouldn't need laws forcing people to hire women just to get their numbers up. In reality, in our culture, we do need such laws.

Precicely. I'm currently studying math and have always liked numbers and mathimatical solutions and how the most efficiant way to do something (and then promtly ignore that efficiant path in favor of a lazier solution if one presents itself), so it's a little frustrating for me to then step back and look at something like human society which is about as efficiant as a brick is at cutting cheese. I suppose that's partly what makes us humans though and not robots, so I guess in some ways I'm looking forward to our enevitable robotic overlords, but on the other side, I do have an appreciation for the wierd quirks of humanity, like me staying up late on a school night when I'm already not a morning person. Still, I suppose striving for an ideal is better than doing nothing, but going overboard is just as bad. As they say, aim for the stars, land on the moon, but with the corallary, shoot past the moon, drift aimlessly in space.

Ok, gotta get to bed. 'Night all (or morning, or afternoon, or whatever time of day you are in the world where you're reading this...)

 

[Obeliskos]

Re: Feminism!

avatar99, GargantuaBlarg, Lucas, OAMP, thetwo

the above users are limp dicked faggots who need to die

namely avatar

 

[the_taken]

Re: Feminism!

I wanted to post a link to a PPG episode where a female villain robs a bank, then tricks the girls into letting her go and turns them temporarily into boy-hater. Two of the main cast ladies have a sit down talk with the girls and set things strait, then the villain gets put in jail (and complains because striped make her look fat.) It was a cute episode, and entirely relevant to the topic.

The only videos on YouTube regarding the PowerPuff Girls are fan made things, and the PowerSlut Girls parody... Episode is called 'Equal Fights' if you want to make a more thorough search than me.

 

[Kusanagi]

Re: Feminism!

Marginally

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, though on the wrong end of it.

^That picture is made of win.

 

[Pale]

Re: Feminism!

A lot of consolation that does the me-me-me, now-now-now yuppies complaining. I don't believe things can change so drastically in the course of a few years or even decades. If you consider that, 1000 years ago (give or take a few centuries, I'm not a history major), women were essentially slaves and that was the social norm, now they've got social status far higher. Maybe in another 1000 years it'll be the men who are subjugated, but really, does it matter now? Not really.

To make a long post short, everyone is different, shut up and deal with it. Things arn't going to change overnight, shut up and deal with it.

It was going so well until this bit!

You just said... it's definitely going to change, this is inevitable, but not for a long time... so we shouldn't try and change it? What? That's not how long-term change works. It doesn't happen for no reason. Cliffs would never get eroded if the sea decided that since they were clearly gonna shrink anyway, it would just not bother bashing them..

My point being, it's not enough to just sit back and let change happen, because if everyone does that, change doesn't happen. Women only moved up from slave status because of (in various forms. Sort of) feminism.

Also, it's great to disagree with political constructs, like politics, religion, feminism.. but you sort of have to suggest an alternative, or a way of changing them. Also, a reason is good. Dismissing the entire system and refusing to have a part in it is the reason anarchists will always fail. You've got to intereact with the system to change it.

P

 

[maikochan]

Re: Feminism!

Gha! That's not what I ment... Crap. I'm horrible at explaning things. I'm a techie, not a public speaker. Ah let's see how to explain...

I suppose what I was going for was that you can't expect change to happen overnight, so stop asking for it. Instead work towards it, but not stupidly so. If you sprint towards a goal instead of moving forward carefully, you're liable to slip and fall on uneven ground. I suppose what I'm advocating (or trying to do so) isn't to stop working on something, but rather to take it slow and steady and take the long view.

As for the other bit about public constructs, I don't really have an alternative, so I just console my self that something is better than nothing and live with that.

 

[scira]

Re: Feminism!

Disclaimer: violence is never the answer and blah blah blah.

Something that really bothers me is that even with all this equal treatment feminism, there is still this attitude of "women are gentle fragile things that need to be protected", but I've seen and had to deal with a few who really deserved to get smacked. Why is it acceptable for them to slap, shove, hit or in general do things that would get another man decked? On top of that is the bonus that if you are not very masculine anyway (like in my case) you get the additional harassment for "beat up by a girl"
Of course I know that behavior like this is not common, but when it happens it drives me mad when people put up with it.

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[Twisted]

Re: Feminism!

This is why I have these points of view
I will hit a man as soon as I will hit a woman, and I will hit a woman as soon as I will hit a man

I try to hold the door open for -everyone-. If I do something for one gender, I do it for the other. Period.
Except for the obvious things like sex. But if you're being stupid, I'll slap you across the face- I don't care if you have tits or not. Doesn't excuse you for being a human being.

 

[handofdoz]

Re: Feminism!

Disclaimer: violence is never the answer and blah blah blah.

Something that really bothers me is that even with all this equal treatment feminism, there is still this attitude of "women are gentle fragile things that need to be protected", but I've seen and had to deal with a few who really deserved to get smacked. Why is it acceptable for them to slap, shove, hit or in general do things that would get another man decked? On top of that is the bonus that if you are not very masculine anyway (like in my case) you get the additional harassment for "beat up by a girl"
Of course I know that behavior like this is not common, but when it happens it drives me mad when people put up with it.

You must be registered to see the links

This is why I have these points of view
I will hit a man as soon as I will hit a woman, and I will hit a woman as soon as I will hit a man

I try to hold the door open for -everyone-. If I do something for one gender, I do it for the other. Period.
Except for the obvious things like sex. But if you're being stupid, I'll slap you across the face- I don't care if you have tits or not. Doesn't excuse you for being a human being.

honestly if a woman hits me ill hit her back twice as hard. just like id do to a guy.