Dark Gate OOC Thread

[Shrike7]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

In regards to the soul shatter power, almost all the other save-or-dies are irreversible to some point, 40EP into gorgon's gaze would be at double the resistance check as it, and i already know of one example of a soul being restored from complete destruction already, so even that isn't set in stone. It's one of the *only* things in there I have seen so far that I can't see a non-spirit character using, which was kind of the entire point in the first place. It isn't even that special.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

In regards to the soul shatter power, almost all the other save-or-dies are irreversible to some point, 40EP into gorgon's gaze would be at double the resistance check as it, and i already know of one example of a soul being restored from complete destruction already, so even that isn't set in stone. It's one of the *only* things in there I have seen so far that I can't see a non-spirit character using, which was kind of the entire point in the first place. It isn't even that special.

Gorgon's Gaze doesn't have an X value anymore, it's a straight Res vs Res check for a static cost.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

Oh yeah, it was one of the powers that got nerfed that i mentioned in my original post. Well then, off the top of my head, i no longer know of any save-or-dies with an X value, making the entire concept of such kind much better for mages anyways, since they all have easy access to spells that raise their wn resistance, at a much cheaper cost.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

Oh yeah, it was one of the powers that got nerfed that i mentioned in my original post. Well then, off the top of my head, i no longer know of any save-or-dies with an X value, making the entire concept of such kind much better for mages anyways, since they all have easy access to spells that raise their wn resistance, at a much cheaper cost.

Mages have only one save or die spell, and it's in Entropy, which has no Resistance buffs and only one Mind buff at level 2. Granted, one could simply take another element with better buffs to raise Resistance, but that's two turns on casting in which the first one leaves the character fairly vulnerable unless they've already established defenses. Gorgon's Gaze, on the other hand, has Fell Might, which not only increases Resistance (albeit only by X) but also attack rolls to make sure that the power hits and Dodge to make sure that the character survives its use. Gorgon's Gaze also only costs 5 EP, whereas Chaos Shard costs 8. Psion has Dominate and Psychic Shield, both of which are far more effective than save-or-die because they not only remove an enemy from the fight, but also gain an ally.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

My entire argument has been that the majority of spirit powers are more useful for other classes, and the remainder that are better utilized by spirit characters have been touted as too powerful and nerfed. Save-or-Die powers are quite easy for mages to be more powerful at that spirits. for example, Alberik spends 4EP as a mage to gain 14 to resistance, 0 upkeep. to use Fell Might for the same purpose would cost 14EP, with I assume an upkeep of 12. that more than makes up for the 3EP difference between the entropy save-or-die and gorgon's gaze. Could be used with Dominate just as easily.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that Alberik has the bare minimum of Mind competency for a mage, and almost no mage talents, also taking none of the magic feats into account. Someone like Kor fromt he Heroes of the Desert thread would make the difference even more remote.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

My entire argument has been that the majority of spirit powers are more useful for other classes, and the remainder that are better utilized by spirit characters have been touted as too powerful and nerfed. Save-or-Die powers are quite easy for mages to be more powerful at that spirits. for example, Alberik spends 4EP as a mage to gain 14 to resistance, 0 upkeep. to use Fell Might for the same purpose would cost 14EP, with I assume an upkeep of 12. that more than makes up for the 3EP difference between the entropy save-or-die and gorgon's gaze. Could be used with Dominate just as easily.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that Alberik has the bare minimum of Mind competency for a mage, and almost no mage talents, also taking none of the magic feats into account. Someone like Kor fromt he Heroes of the Desert thread would make the difference even more remote

There's still the turn in which you have no defense beyond what you've already set up besides the other spell. Mages are supposed to be more EP efficient - they're using the energy in the air instead of just the energy in them - but they also don't have the sheer bang per turn that Spirit Wielders do. Going Fell Might for 10 on turn one gives a character +10 Resistance AND +30 Dodge and attack for 10 EP, a drop in the bucket for most characters that use primarily Spirit Powers. The Mage's +14 Resistance upgrade (which would only be +20 on a character with 60 Mind, which is about as high as it goes on any active PCs that come to mind) might only cost 2 EP, but it also doesn't protect them from anything that doesn't care about Resistance, like say a warrior's axe coming for your face.

The next turn, the mage can use Gorgon's Gaze for 5 EP IF they're still standing. The spirit wielder, who is much more likely to still be up, is going to shrug, spend the 8 EP and 6 HP upkeep, then spend the 5 extra EP for Gorgon's Gaze, and will be about as likely to succeed at the theoretically still alive mage while still having plenty of energy to spare. Also, an activation of Psychic Shield for 10 EP would grant +30 Resistance, Grapple, and Dodge, plus 10 AV in case they get hit. A mage with Healer could theoretically do that for 6 EP.... Over the course of 3 to 4 turns. There are the bigger buffs with the cheaper EP costs, but the focus produces the same problems. Spirit Wielders also don't have Base Casting to worry about.

You can argue that mages with dipped Spirit Powers for a save or die are slightly more effective at it. You might also be arguably right. But there are only like, 4 save or die things in DG total, not counting things like Charm or Pollen Shot, and of those most of them are Spirit Powers. A mage that's spending a Talent on a Spirit Power tree for no better reason than to have a save-or-die so that it can use a Resistance buff to increase the likelihood of said save-or-die working, then they're being fairly roundabout in order to get to their goal.

In the end, it really is apples to oranges, and they're both effective at doing the things that they do anyway. It only matters if one is more effective than the other if the difference is extreme.

Also, taking CW's characters into account, Anthriel hits with Spirit Powers with a 106 and can comfortably pump 30 EP into a single attack. Kor, with his best buff to Dodge in an attempt to survive that hit, would either be Empowered Arcane Apotheosis for 16 EP or Empowered Force Armor for 10 EP. 12 * 8 = +96 Mind for 48 Dodge, or 12 * 5 = +60 Dodge. His natural Dodge of 44 means that Anthriel still hits on a 1, and her minimum damage on an energy blast is 120, which almost kills Kor even with his damage reduction. Rolling one higher on any one of those d4s increases that to 150 damage, which does outright kill him after his damage reduction. Hitting him with an energy blade for half that EP cost would outright kill him, and she'd have the same chance to hit. Kor even has a chance of losing if he tries to alpha strike, as Anthriel's Dodge of 75 gives him a 30% chance to miss with any spell that he attacks with, as empowered magic missile isn't going to get through her 71 HP on anything but max damage.

I know Tass mentioned it was absurd, but Soul Shatter seems like it shouldn't exist except as a GM's plot device. And if you wanted it to exist and be usable,
then have the starting Resistance DC be extremely low, and that if you wanted to obliterate someone powerful, you'd have to be able to spend an additionally ridiculous amount of EP to increase the DC check to a point where the target might fail.

If you do that, then it becomes an ability that creatures like Matthias can be capable of, but normal PCs would have to dedicate a significant amount of time and experience to getting their spirit ceiling and EP stat to a high enough level that they could reasonably use this ability.

EDIT: Also, I like the Druidic spirit tree. Its restrictions really make sense with regards to my own character's background, so I appreciate the way you had it work out.

The problem with leaving it in the hands of characters like Matthias is 2 fold. One, they don't need explicit mechanics to kill PCs. The upper tier god level daemons in DG, like Matthias, Doraleous, Sivicine, and Whisp are powerful enough to pull the moon out of orbit with their minds. All of the PCs at once aren't going to fight that and win, thematically or mechanically. Even the weaker gods like the Merchant and Corini would use the stats for Archangels and Demon Queens if they ever ended up in a fight with a PC, and even the extremely powerful characters would need to get real lucky to beat one of those.

And two, I don't like letting NPCs do things that PCs outright can't. It might not be as powerful as the stuff that the gods can do, but ye Daemon power is at least a fascimile of what they can do to someone.

Also, if you're talking about the incident with Charlotte, that was being divided neatly into three pieces by a god who made sure that nothing bad happened to any of the bits. Soul Shatter would be more like hitting a vase with a baseball bat and then setting the individual pieces on fire.

That said, I'm willing to drop Soul Shatter if I or somebody else can think up a suitable replacement.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

Don't recall the name, but when she originally died, it was 'Soul eaten by the aliens, gone.' then she decided to try anyways, , so you came down with Matthais and ran circles of plot weaving to *make* it possible. Not saying that's a good or bad thing, just saying that soul shatter being 'permanently gone' could just as easily be worked around if it was needed. Heck, using that same concept, even.

Anthriel is double the spirit of any other PC out there easily, put every single of her starting stats into spirit, and five exceptionals as well. if that is what it takes to give a spirit user something that can top another class, then that should be saying something on it's own. There's an archer built by a non-optomizer that im pretty sure i've seen put out about 300 damage in one turn, that's almost the average of what Al can manage spending all her EP in a single attack. Anthriel could top that probably three times over, but again.

I have also only seen a single option now for spirits wishing to spread out into other classes easily, and what that does is let you use your own spirit abilities more like a wariior would. You're still ahead of yourself just to make a warrior in the first place, for access to all the other skills. and when those spirit side powers become available to the other classes (warrior skills and mage feats are, after all. only a matter of time), then a warrior can pick that up and save himself the cost of two or three talents.

Even the mechanic of the spirit ceiling hits spirits harder than any other class. Mages almost never touch their ceiling without using feats on their highest spells, or multiple feats on their lower ones. Warriors using buffs get as much use as they want from it from well under their ceiling as well. I'm not sure if two hasted spells count against the same ceiling, but with buffs and active costs falling under different ceilings (being an over-time drain and a sudden drain stacking), i don't see two spells working against the ceiling either (being a sudden drain, stopping that, then another sudden drain).

Your argument on buffing to aid save-or-dies convinces me on the current case of it, but compared to before, when a spirit could simply buff a save-or-die by doing the 'spirit thing' and simply spending more EP, they still wind up short in my mind.

The only type of power that spirits generally use better than others is straight damaging powers, since they're the few common ones left that still use X regularly. even then, a single mage feat lets them add mind\something to damage, so they're much more effective at using those with smaller EP values, letting them use it for decent repeatable blasting. Ep providing the multiplier makes it far more effective at higher costs though, which is why I consider them still better for spirits.

The spirit side list thing was the best step into turning spirits back into a class of their own that i've seen so far, but all these new powers in the same vein as the older ones is really just increasing potential for the dippers as much as for the spirits, which is exactly what i was speaking up for in the first place.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

I don't really care what soul shatter does, just to be clear, I like it because it costs 40 EP. It's something you aren't going to be seeing anything other than a spirit character using, at least not with any frequency.

 

[Tiffanian]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

It's not that hard to build a character around having a high resistance. Most PCs should have fairly high resistance anyway unless they aren't optimized. So tying save or dies strictly to resistance isn't so much a "nerf" as a "build around me" feature. Though I will admit that I find the concept of save or dies undesirable to begin with, so making it so they're not simply always "die" for any serious character with a reasonable amount of EP is a plus in my book.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

It's not that hard to build a character around having a high resistance. Most PCs should have fairly high resistance anyway unless they aren't optimized. So tying save or dies strictly to resistance isn't so much a "nerf" as a "build around me" feature. Though I will admit that I find the concept of save or dies undesirable to begin with, so making it so they're not simply always "die" for any serious character with a reasonable amount of EP is a plus in my book.

that's what i'm talking about. you could build a character in *any* class around high resistance, and just pick up the spirit power for a single talent. with no X, there is nothing making it better, special, or unique for a spirit user to have it. Most of the spirit powers are like this.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

The case of Anthriel vs Kor isn't a normal case for either class. That was exclusively CW's characters, as I wouldn't call either of them the average level of power for either class. For Spirit Wielders, the average is more along the lines of Maya or Enigma, while the average mage would be something like Miranda.

Also, one of the classic builds is a Spirit Wielder that dips warrior, the reversal of the warrior that dips for buffs, and as I said, I agree with you on that. Spirit Wielders haven't been upgraded since DG1 beyond adding and shifting power lists. That's why I'm giving them their own Skill/Feat esque mechanic that's hard for characters of other classes to get, and I said before that the posted list wasn't comprehensive.

Also, Spirit Ceiling is concerned with EP out per round that isn't caused by drain effects like succubus rape or certain spells. How many sources is irrelevant, so Haste's upkeep would count towards it along with whatever two spells you cast. I know that wasn't a particularly important point, but it's necessary to clarify.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

What I was saying is that Anthriel vs pretty well anything is going to be a bad comparison, because as far as i know, nobody else has ever put all 80 possible starting points into a single stat. Kor didn't, and he loses out by a fairly large margin, the way you put it.

That spirit has to pay double to dip warrior, since there is nothing currently past the single general talent that lets them get anything from another list. mages and warriors both have option to at least change the other class stuff they pick up to work off their own stat, for instance.

You have specifically told me that with a spirit ceiling of 10, you can have an upkeep at 10 per round and still spend EP on things without passing your ceiling. has that changed? If that's still true, why would say, casting a spell, while your upkeep is already at a ceiling not burn you, while casting two spells one after another cause burn?

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

What I was saying is that Anthriel vs pretty well anything is going to be a bad comparison, because as far as i know, nobody else has ever put all 80 possible starting points into a single stat. Kor didn't, and he loses out by a fairly large margin, the way you put it.

Ahhh. He only narrowly loses because half vampire damage reduction. That's also without breaking her ceiling, she can go much much higher than 30 if need be, but I get your point.

That spirit has to pay double to dip warrior, since there is nothing currently past the single general talent that lets them get anything from another list. mages and warriors both have option to at least change the other class stuff they pick up to work off their own stat, for instance.

This is one of the things that I intend to change. They had this ability back in DG1, but it got dropped because nobody made use of it.

You have specifically told me that with a spirit ceiling of 10, you can have an upkeep at 10 per round and still spend EP on things without passing your ceiling. has that changed? If that's still true, why would say, casting a spell, while your upkeep is already at a ceiling not burn you, while casting two spells one after another cause burn?

I was either incorrect at the time for some reason, or it was before I had that ruling actually clear in my head. Casting a spell while upkeep is at your ceiling would burn you, just as it would for casting two spells.

 

[Tiffanian]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

Wait, seriously?

 

[Shrike7]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

done, and done, enough anyways.

as for the third, you told me that about the time anthriel was starting up, because her first combat involved using her ceiling to cast a buff, then using her ceiling on energy blade the next round. she didnt burn at all after using her full ceiling with an upkeep two points short of that, and the entire thing left her upkeep one short, and got her an attack the second round. I could not convince you that ceiling should not be run that way, i tried for about two hours.

too much of rant, didn't read? short version: Yes, it's been changed since.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

done, and done, enough anyways.

as for the third, you told me that about the time anthriel was starting up, because her first combat involved using her ceiling to cast a buff, then using her ceiling on energy blade the next round. she didnt burn at all after using her full ceiling with an upkeep two points short of that, and the entire thing left her upkeep one short, and got her an attack the second round. I could not convince you that ceiling should not be run that way, i tried for about two hours.

too much of rant, didn't read? short version: Yes, it's been changed since.

I think that was after the powers had their upkeep dropped to X - 2, that or I was just derping that day or something. Probably the latter, now that I think about it.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

*shrugs* Well, that's on thing sorted i have been arguing for for the better part of a year. turns out it's been that way almost the entire time, and everybody has been arguing against me for no raisin. ah well.

Anyways, this is what I have been seeing of the game, and how i feel about it. I'll wander away now, before I start any more arguments.

 

[Unknown Squid]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

One drawback of these new extra spirit power sets, is that now there's going to be even more fun tricks to learn, and distract Maya from upping her basic spirit attribute. >_>

I was trying to write out some stuff analysing and summarising the state of spirit wielders and "cross class equality" here, but it's honestly kind of awkward, depends a lot on opinion of how good the class is used solo, and just sounded argumentative. So bleh to that lump of text.

Other players going for optimised builds and dabbling in the odd spirit power hasn't made my character any less fun to play. So whilst I do see and understand what Shrike has been saying, I've not seen it as an issue til now personally.

 

[Hafnium]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

Another warrior suggestion! Because yay warrior suggestions!

Adaptive Defense (Activated) - The character my trade up to a total of 10 points into their Resistance, Dodge, or Armor stats by removing the difference from any of the other two. Multiple of these three stats may be subtracted from at once in order to boost the other, or one can be divided to boost both others (i.e. 5 dodge and 5 resistance to 10 armor, 20 armor for 10 dodge and 10 resistance, etc.).

Might make it weapon specific skill for unarmed, maybe, since this is decently powerful, if a tradeoff, and unarmed doesn't really have any under that listing. Iunno.

 

[Unknown Squid]

Re: Dark Gate OOC Thread

The issue I see with that one, is that being able to boost resistance by that much is pretty potent. Particularly being a boost that wouldn't require a turn or any energy to prepare. Even without armour, I could have Maya pick that up solely to boost psion domination attempts.

For standard combat too, that would be an easy +20 armour that nearly any warrior could afford and use in most combats. Since resistance whilst very significant, tends to either be heavily involved in a situation, or not relevant at all.

Needs tweaking a bit I feel.