Dark Gate OOC Thread

[freeko]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Unfortunately I have little knowledge of casting spells. Damn shame I cant cast spells really, but oh well I make do. I think potentially there could be a casting delay for spells that are higher level. Lets say level 1 and 2 spells are instant but level 3+ would take a round to "charge up" so to say. Personally I think things like that are against what I perceive to be the spirit of the game so it is hard to say in all fairness.

Maybe channelling hp/pp to boost a spell would be suitable? Maybe having a delay to cast higher level spells would be more suitable? Maybe you can add in a factor of a spell being blocked or interrupted with a higher risk of interruption as the spell level increases, and if the spell fails then there would be a stun involved? The fact is that I dont know what would be the best way to handle it. Personally I would call it powergaming and try to stop it as much as possible, but I am not the GM now am I?

I think at the base level there should be a risk/reward system involved in spell casting because it is seemingly too powerful. Creativity or just getting sexed should be rewarded more so than just powergaming their way through as some unbeatable spellcaster because the rules allow for it.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

@maikos idea: That's what I was considering for the next rules revision, but as others have said, it seems too extreme to do it in the middle of the game.

@Termite: That's an interesting idea. Making it reliant on Speed instead of Dodge would let me keep with my rule, and would mean that it didn't have anything to do with Resistance.

@GargantuaBlarg: Don't worry, I'm keeping the flavor. The only thing I'm doing is shifting around numbers to make it so that PCs with Spirit Powers can't insta-wreck bosses.

@Hafnium: Lulz @ your example. I'd rather not have to make others figure out how far someone is from the epicenter of a blast, as it would mean more maths for me, and I iz lazy. The Mind vs Mind or Spirit vs Spirit is an idea, but it would be somewhat unlikely to work for characters that didn't use those powers. And finally, for your rest time idea, that's what I had in DG1. It was an enormous pain in the ass to remember though, so I didn't keep it for DG2.

So far, the idea I've liked most is Squids, and probably going to go with Spirit/4 for it, possibly with a Talent to increase it or somesuch. Going above the max would cause double EP loss for every point above the maximum, as well as taking damage equal to the EP above your charries max.

@Freeko: Penalties to two weapon fighters would be reasonable. I was thinking a -5 to each weapons damage, but I never actually got around to it.

Right now, Magic is fairly balanced, and it's not that that I was worry about anyway.

Also, I'd like any AoE dodge mechanic done in a single check, so as to minimize the number of rolls I have to do.

 

[freeko]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

@Tass: The main hand should not see as severe a penalty as the off hand under most circumstances. Maybe -2 main hand and -5 off hand would work. Then again there could be specialized weapons that allow the penalty to be reduced, like a specialized off hand weapon for those who do dual wield.

 

[Hafnium]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Understandable about the tracking and math stuff! I know that when I'm DM'ing my players have a tendency of finding massive amounts of food just so that I don't have to track it (unless I'm specifically emphasizing the wilderness survival portions for some reason). >.>

Plus, Squid's idea is great and much simpler to keep track of.

Regarding AoE: Out of curiosity, is there a particular reason beyond tracking not to just use a character's Spirit (or Mind) rating as to-hit and roll against the static dodge rating as though they were making a melee attack vs the targets?

I mean, it seems that a quick fix would simply be to either have the character roll once to-hit with mind or spirit and compare it against all the targets then roll damage once and hit the affected targets with that damage (Pros: Easier to track and roll than individual. Cons: AoEs become either hit or miss, no real in between because the group compositions tend to be mostly one type of enemy. This can be said for most things that keep it to a single roll, though.).

That or do a single to-hit roll versus each monster in the same manner as melee but with a single damage roll (Pros: Makes AoE's effect more varied and possible to be dodged. Cons: More to-hit rolls. So many more rolls.)

Just for the sake of making this pointlessly complicated I'll add in that you could even put in speed as natural bonus armor against AoE if you're looking for more ways to dampen it. It probably wouldn't be necessary though as adding a to-hit in any form would dampen AoE to some extent. Though, again, I can see how with so many threads you wouldn't want more to track or roll. >.>

 

[TentanariX]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

To plm and sponge due to my phones data limit on my plan nearing it's max I might be slow this week, especially with me working mornings most days. Hopefully I can get to a good steady rate and get on my phone more next week after my limit resets for the next month.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Wowee, good job on that. I'm here on my phone for hours a day, and a few other places as well, and I barely use like a half gig out of my two-gig plan. Do you spend a lot of time on youtube or something, that's just incredible. XD

 

[Tassadar]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

General announcement: After seeing how much certain characters damage has been nerfed, I'm going form Body/3 to Body/2 or all melee weapon damage. That's melee weapons only, ranged weapons are staying the same. Sorry about all the jumping around. :/

@Hafnium: Not really. Most enemies that don't use them have low Mind and Body stats, but that just means most enemies would get hit all of the time. I just didn't want the same thing used for AoE attacks as for regular attacks. Plus, at least in my mind, hitting multiple targets with, say, a fireball isn't the same as hitting one target with a bolt of fire. Using Spirit or Mind vs the targets dodge might work though

I had further discussion with Squid, and we noticed some faults with the original plan, namely that multiclass characters with spirit powers basically couldn't use them. I forget what I used to fix this, other than inserting some minimum value, but here's an alternative option: Instead of using Spirit/4, and only counting that as the max value one can put into X without hurting yourself, use Spirit/2 or Spirit/3 and use that as how much total EP one could put in, including base costs. Any thoughts on that?

@freeko: Making separate penalties to each weapon is needlessly complex, and feels too much like ripping off D&D, which uses a similar system, with different penalties to attack and damage based on certain circumstances. It's more realistic, certainly, but it's also more confusing than I want things to be.

 

[Termite]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

How about instead of Spirit/4 for the max EP you can spend you instead base it on the EP stat itself? That way I won't feel so useless when I get to rest and take Pyrokinesis to use as Alex's Dragonbreath attack.

 

[Tassadar]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

How about instead of Spirit/4 for the max EP you can spend you instead base it on the EP stat itself? That way I won't feel so useless when I get to rest and take Pyrokinesis to use as Alex's Dragonbreath attack.

Hrm. Such as? EP/5? EP/10? That's one idea for an alternative that won't completely cripple those that only dabble as Spirit users.

Lets do some math here......
At EP = 30, 40, 50 and 80.

Dedicated Spirit users like Kaila, Enigma, Alberik and Maya have around 60-90 EP. People that take it as a side ability, like Tomoe, Nerzalil, Naltaibur and Aya have about 40-50.

Max = EP/2 = 15, 20, 25 and 40.
Still too high, since high Spirit characters would be almost unaffected.

Max = EP/3 = 10, 13, 17 and 27.
It's not unreasonable, but a bit too high.

Max = EP/5 = 6, 8, 10 and 16.
A little low, since the average range is 30-50, with about 80 for the heavy spirit users.

Max = EP/4 = 8, 10, 13 and 20.
A little bit too high.

So far, I like EP/5 the most, to be honest. That would only be going by the X value put into the power, rather than the total cost. If I were going for Total Cost of a power, I'd probably go with EP/4. Any thoughts on that?

Currently the cap is a soft cap of how high the value of X can be, where going over the limit doubles the EP cost of every point past the cap, and also takes an amount of damage equal to the amount exceeding the ceiling.




Other notices: I editted the shop list with more options for enchanting stuff, and altered costs. I'd like to remind people that they can go to the shop at any time they're out of combat (and not trapped in some monsters lair, helpless of course) by having their character think about wanting to sell or buy stuff.

I changed two weapon fighting. I don't think it matters to anyone though, so it's really just a general heads up. Both attacks now get a -4 to attack and damage rolls.

For dodging AoE spells and powers, the check has been decided, by way of me just wanting to get it out of the goddamn way. It's now just an attack roll using Mind for Spells and Spirit for Powers against every possible targets Dodge, with penalties possible for conditions such as attacking from surprise, being in close quarters, targets speed, being grappled/helpless, ect.

Edit: Oh yeah, summons lost their 5 Mind and 10 Spirit. It makes the stats way simpler for me with both of those at 0. I think I might give them special bonuses at every level, like Stealthy at level 1, Skill with Unarmed at level 2, Hard to Hit at level 3, grapple expert at level 4, and Strike the weak point at level 5. That, or I might go through the list and make them special for every summon.

 

[Shrike7]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I haven't had much chance to playtest, but the only time I have required an expenditure of just 5. I could see much more needed for combat, but EP/5 sounds like plenty to me.

I have a thought/question about the soft cap though. Is the damage equal to the total spent above the cap, or the effectife gain above the cap? For example, if you go four points above, you get a gain of 2 points to your power, but is the damage 4 or just 2. Without checking the sheets, I'm going to assume that most main-spirit users have fairly low body, and most spirit dabblers have moderate to high body. I think damage at half the total work work best in that case, as it helps enforce a second cap to the high spirit characters, forcing them to stay closer to the soft cap to avoid damage that may push them over the edge, without making it so they couldn't go very far above it at all. By the same token, the low spirit, high body characters can bush themselves further and get more out of their powers than otherwise. High-spirit characters are still more effective, but those that really want to one-hit stuff should start investing in body as well.

A new thought just occurs to me. Have the damage equal the total, and add a trait that halves the damage you take. Best of both worlds, I think.

 

[GargantuaBlarg]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I suppose I should update my character before I actually get to combat.

...I'm REALLY missing that flat +20 damage on my crossbow, now that it's just "a bow". It was both a viable no-EP/dude's-far-away weapon, and seemed to make more sense for my little doctor to have than a gun, seeing as those are technological marvels produced in Badaria (hates us, right?) or the desert (far from Snowville, and probably on the opposite side of Badaria), and ICly probably expensive to get and supply ammo for.

Was there a particular reason the other not-bullety weapons didn't survive the rewrite?

...Also, how'd you build the bow? Was it the same formula, same base, same point total as rifles?

Spoiler

http://www.ulmf.org/bbs/showpost.php?p=256249&postcount=574
For guns, I started with 2d6 damage and a range of 20 feet, one shot in the magazine, and a 2 turn reload, and worked my way up from there. Here's the point buy system I used to determine the values of the weapons.
-Pistols start with 14 points while rifles start with 20 points.
-Add 1 damage dice = 3 points.
-Upgrade the damage dice by 1 step = 2 points.
-Add a +1 damage bonus to the weapon = 1 point.
-Increase the weapons range by 10 feet = 1 point.
-Increase the magazine size by 1 = 1 point.
-Add 1 to the weapons reload speed = return 3 points.
-Ignoring 5 points of AV = 1 point.

I would like to toy with remaking the bows and crossbows and shit, if that's okay. mostly because I want my capability to hurt things with arrow/bolts again.

 

[Termite]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

The melee weapon buff, will that also apply to Unarmed?

Base Unarmed changes from Body/4 to Body/3
Boosted Unarmed changes from Body/3 to Body/2

 

[Tassadar]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

@Termite: Thanks for reminding me of that. It won't increase the basic unarmed damage, which will still suck, but the upgraded unarmed should have gone up.

@GB: The bow goes off a characters Body score, so the same formula didn't really work. I just tried to keep the bow balanced with throwing weapons. I dropped the crossbows because I thought no one was using them, but if you want to mess around a bit, I wouldn't mind if you made a crossbow. It would have to stick to the guns formulas though. It would save me the work of having to do it myself as well.

And yeah, you'd be unlikely to have a gun if you were living in Therion.

@Shrike: Total spent above the cap. EX: if your cap is 8, and you use 11, you'd take 3 damage and waste 3 EP.

Trait idea is an option, we shall see.

Edit: thetwo suggested a change to the way Speed is handled in the mechanics. Instead of using Body/2, the formula square root of (10 * Body). This would generate a somewhat more realistic curve, but would also require more complex math. Granted, we live in an age of cell phone and internet calculators, so I leave it up to others to decide whether this would be a good idea or not.

 

[Incubus]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Edit: thetwo suggested a change to the way Speed is handled in the mechanics. Instead of using Body/2, the formula square root of (10 * Body). This would generate a somewhat more realistic curve, but would also require more complex math. Granted, we live in an age of cell phone and internet calculators, so I leave it up to others to decide whether this would be a good idea or not.

My body/2 is 20.

The square root of my body * 10 is also 20. I think. Dunno if I did it right but I think I did.

And then I throw on the speedy trait to blow it out the water.

Ultimately, I'm guessing this boosts the bottom end of body scores a lot more. My biggest concern here is by increasing the base speed, it further detracts for the only reason to not wear the heaviest armour possible at character creation. And that's a fairly minor concern at that, the problem is more with the armours than the speed rules.

 

[thetwo]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

My body/2 is 20.

The square root of my body * 10 is also 20. I think. Dunno if I did it right but I think I did.

Yes, 40 body is the break-even point - anyone below that gets a modest boost, anyone above that gets a modest nerf. And people at 100 body go from 50 speed to 31.

As for the problem of penalties for heavy armor... well, the traditional penalty is a chance of failure to cast spells. Just saying.

 

[Incubus]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

well, the traditional penalty is a chance of failure to cast spells. Just saying.

There's also usually a higher cost involved :x

 

[Unknown Squid]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Statistically and combat minded, the armours at least up to the middle range have always been advantageous over light/non armoured options anyway. The most commonly picked armour remains none/cloth for purely character and RP reasons. The low body characters that this would benefit are the same mages and spirit users that have deliberately shunned armour for fluff purposes.

Also, we're looking at characters with speeds of 4 to 6 here. Virtually stationary turrets in combat. If we assume that this formula switch doubles their speed, which it won't *, giving them the heaviest armour reduces their speed to 2 and minus 2. Even my spirit user with a very respectable 24 body still only has 12 speed, and would be near grounded by the heavier armours. Traditionally in this game the heavy armours have only ever been selected by the highest body characters, who relied on their body score to make it possible to use. Over all, I'd actually say that this is a minor nerf to the use of heavy armour.

* Edit: Hah, well I got that wrong huh? Though the point that having 10 speed doesn't make armour that imposes a -10 penalty a great choice, does still stand.

 

[Hafnium]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

Body/2 vs (Body*10)'s Square Root:

10 Body
Current: 5 speed
New: 10 speed

20 Body
Current: 10
New: 14.14213... (You get the point)

30 Body
Current: 15
New: 17.32050...

40 Body
Current: 20
New: 20

50 Body
Current: 25
New: 22.36067...

I dunno, it's not a big change at the high-end. It pretty much doubles the lowest speed that you'd be likely to see on a character. It's a small difference and I don't think it would wildly imbalance anything but I'm not a fan of the idea for a few reasons.

1) It seems like speed has only been an issue less than a handful of times. A few of these times were for characters who have low body scores. One that I can recall was for a 40-ish body character who was a sizable distance away from their target. It seems to me that having the occasional speed issue is an acceptable inconvenience for characters who have low body, especially since they tend to have ranged spells. Kind of like how if my character couldn't cast a simple light spell without burning her eyebrows off and if she ever has to do a mind check with her pitiful sub-10 then she's screwed (potentially literally! ).

Moreover, the most noticeable time that PC speed is an issue is in multiplayer threads where things can't always be fast-forwarded until they're in range. In single player threads speed seems to mostly end up being a measure of how many actions an out of range monster gets before the PC can bring the pain to them.

2) This is a minor complaint but it creates additional complexity. Yes, I know it's possible to just throw your body*10 into google and get a figure, then search for a square root calculator and just toss said figure in there and be done in seconds. Yet there are people who have had issues with much simpler things in regards to character creation, I can only wonder what will happen if character creation gets into square roots.

3) The armor thing does seem a bit out of place. As long as speed is the only limiting factor for armor then any buff to the speeds of characters with lower body scores is a buff to their ability to wear armor. Though if there was an additional penalty for base casting (or maybe there is one that I'm not aware of, I read through the magic stuff a few times and never noticed anything) based on encumbrance value or something then this would be a non-issue.

All relatively minor things that could be fixed, of course, but that's basically the listing of why I disagree with the possible change as it stands.

 

[thetwo]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I dunno, it's not a big change at the high-end.

We've had enemies with 100 body. This would move them from 50 to 31 speed. That's what was really egregious before, that and the fact that non-martial characters are barely crawling.

1) Kind of like how if my character couldn't cast a simple light spell without burning her eyebrows off and if she ever has to do a mind check with her pitiful sub-10 then she's screwed (potentially literally! ).

The particular indecent that brought this up was the fact that it would take me THIRTEEN turns to get to the other end of the room in my current fight, assuming I didn't preform any other actions along the way.

2) This is a minor complaint but it creates additional complexity. Yes, I know it's possible to just throw your body*10 into google and get a figure, then search for a square root calculator and just toss said figure in there and be done in seconds. Yet there are people who have had issues with much simpler things in regards to character creation, I can only wonder what will happen if character creation gets into square roots.

Okay, two problems here. First, to multiply a number by 10, you add a zero at the end. That's it. Secondly,

You must be registered to see the links

no need to find a calculator. If figuring out a single square root is too much effort, then the whole thing probably is.

 

[Hafnium]

Re: PbP Interest Check(And OOC Thread)

I could just be reading too much into your response but I fear that I may have somehow offended. If that's the case I apologize, it wasn't my intention to be insulting or derogatory about the idea.

We've had enemies with 100 body. This would move them from 50 to 31 speed. That's what was really egregious before, that and the fact that non-martial characters are barely crawling.

Speed does seem like it could become an actual issue for mage/spirit characters in multiplayer threads, I agree with that it needs to be changed. This solution still bothers me, though. Maybe change just frightens and confuses me. >.>

I would also put forward that the Nightmare Lord/Angel's 20 armor, 50 resistance, and 50 dodge worry me a fair amount more than their 50 speed but that could be because I play melee and am pretty much dead if one starts casting on me from max range even if they don't kite me. The other 100 body monsters seem to have juggernaut which mauls their speed anyway.

The particular indecent that brought this up was the fact that it would take me THIRTEEN turns to get to the other end of the room in my current fight, assuming I didn't preform any other actions along the way.

I agree that thirteen turns of doing nothing would suck, especially since it's more than a day a turn for the most part.

But am I mistaken in believing that casting level 3+ stream, ball, and bolt spells from 150-250 range for good damage is fairly do-able though? I'm assuming you're talking 13 turns of moving at 18 speed (double move) per turn and that's what, 234 range?

Okay, two problems here. First, to multiply a number by 10, you add a zero at the end. That's it. Secondly, you can just put the whole thing into google no need to find a calculator. If figuring out a single square root is too much effort, then the whole thing probably is.

Like I said, it was a minor complaint. Yes, you can do what I did and type 'square root of 560' into a Google taskbar and get an answer in half a second without even so much as hitting enter. People have had issues with easier things during character creation.

Partially related note: I've seen people who had issues with a teeter-totter damage formula of (PC Strength/10) - (Opponent Strength/10) + 10.

Even though a quick and simple multiplication and square root check shouldn't cause any problems, someone will have issues with them. I didn't bring that up just because I was afraid that one out of twenty sign-ups was going to bang their head on their desk just trying to figure out that the square root of 100 is 10, though.

It's a combination of that small added complication, the fact that the change in speed is minor unless dealing with an opponent who will probably destroy PC's on their other absurd stats anyway, and the fact that armor is currently only limited by speed that gives it a bad taste to me.

Your PC's current speed is 9, you double move at 18. With the change you'd be at 13 and double move at 26. This means that your thirteen moves to the other end (I'm assuming they're around 234) would become nine. This is a fine change in itself. Not a big change but a good change. I mean, even mages shouldn't have to spend a minimum of thirteen real-life days crossing a room, no matter how massive or how much I hate mages (I keed).

From 28 speed I'd drop to 24. Which is negligible and doesn't bother me, if I really wanted to be fast I could have just taken quick. Even if I picked up plate armor I'd be at 14. Most body PCs are around 40 body so this would have basically no effect on them.

I dunno, I guess I think it would be fine as long as there was a further penalty on armor for mages/spirit users. That was my most nagging concern, even if it was minor. Potentially have the EV subtract from Base Casting for mages and have it subtract from the EP cap that Tassadar intends on implementing for spirit users?