Announcement Apparently this is a factor: Threats

[HentaiWriter]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

HentaiWriter, when I learned after my suspicions that he had recieved personal threats while being more open here, making him have to take more non-open means of news reveals.

For the record, I never had any personal threats on ULMF or anywhere else; I stopped doing news reveals on here because it became a time-sink where everyone just argued about everything (which is something I have publicly stated many times, tbh), and I would rather make progress on the full game + fire demo instead of arguing on forums. That said, the demo is about 99.9% done, finally, so expect it soon

I also kept update info like gifs and general text updates until now, to Patrons only, because they deserved exclusive content, but after the fire demo's out I'll be posting those updates publicly and posting on ULMF again, because the Patrons will be getting exclusive demos etc.

So yeah, not sure who told you that I was getting personal threats over this game

 

[RenVortex]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

Pardon me if I'm being rude or ignorant, but I'm not sure this topic needed to be brought up in the first place.

 

[censuur]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

Gamergate movement has persecuted Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian"

What you are doing is accusing someone of a crime that has no conviction, this is libel, no one has been convicted and your sources are questionable AT BEST. GamerGate as far as I know is not a real official organization and anyone can claim "I'm part of gamergate!" with no scrutiny involved, all I can tell you is that GamerGate brought attention to Anita Sarkeesian because they claimed she was lying about being threatened, because she had yet to contact the local authorities despite making several claims of fearing for her life.

When you then claim "gamergate is harassing me" anyone who harasses you can easily claim "I'm with gamergate!" and this is just taken for fact.

Stop spouting bullshit when you actually know very little, and especially don't claim things for fact which are extremely dubious at best. That's all I need you to know.

 

[PM21]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

Again, at this present time, are threats being made? If so, handle it accordingly. Take screenshots and show them to a mod so they can take appropriate action.

It's a potential problem on any given forum or public posting medium at any given time. The best you can do is ignore and report. If the problem does in fact go beyond petty words and harassment then gather proof and expand efforts. No matter how mean someone's words are, they are still only words. Any real action in legality can really only be made if there is solid evidence and reason to believe a person may act on their words.

Luckily, on a forum like this, you can block communication from a person. A thread like this informs of nothing that isn't already known and only serves to provide attention they so crave. If you, Lila, are the one being harassed, then making this thread means they have won. If so, they got you so worked up that the countermeasures in place weren't enough for you.

There are plenty of developers on this forum that I'm 100% sure get called some mean, off color words and I don't see them making threads. I'd go so far to say that making this thread tells the administration and moderation of this forum that you don't trust them to do their job.

 

[Ryka]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

So yeah, not sure who told you that I was getting personal threats over this game

I might have read wrongly before DarkFire throttled the escalation. Apologies, HW. Great news about the demo, though. n.n

I do hear news periodically of developers, official or otherwise, having to create some drastic measures after threats made by someone who just cannot stand the fact something was or wasn't in a game or project.

All in all, to deter everyone from TRYING TO ARGUE WITH ME FOR BEING GOOD, I am only trying to help. I do not want to see anyone else close a project due to a threat.

 

[censuur]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

I might have read wrongly before DarkFire throttled the escalation. Apologies, HW. Great news about the demo, though. n.n

I do hear news periodically of developers, official or otherwise, having to create some drastic measures after threats made by someone who just cannot stand the fact something was or wasn't in a game or project.

All in all, to deter everyone from TRYING TO ARGUE WITH ME FOR BEING GOOD, I am only trying to help. I do not want to see anyone else close a project due to a threat.

Nobody is telling you off for trying to do the right thing, Lila, people are telling you off because you're failing to do so.

As good as your intentions might be, your methods are awful, insulting to everyone involved (victims, moderators, frustrated clientele) and it's clear that it is because you're trying to address an issue you do not fully understand.

Again, to address this issue you need to stop looking at just "harassment is happening, it's bad" you need to look at "why is it happening"

I could say stealing is bad, but I'm not about to act as though someone who is starving is a horrible person for resorting to theft, that'd would be downright awful of me, as I'm essentially accusing someone who has no real choice for making the wrong one.

If you really want to tackle this issue, you're going to need to do your homework on it, find out why people harass others, why others are being harassed (this is similar, but not the same thing) and what steps can be taken to resolve the issue for both parties, not just shutting down one of them without even hearing them out.

If a developer is receiving threats, I would first need to know WHY they are being threatened, otherwise just resolving the threats solves nothing, it's like plugging a leak with chewing gum.

 

[Larcx]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

Pardon me if I'm being rude or ignorant, but I'm not sure this topic needed to be brought up in the first place.

No You're not rude , probably
Coz I do also think so from the beginning
We are on same boat then , lol

From the very start of reading the thread
I already have a certain hunch
Not again.......

 

[habisain]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

Censuur: I'm not going to continue on the Gamergate discussion because that will just escalate to a flame war. However on your last point about wanting to have reasons, I would be intrigued on your thoughts on the following.

I, as developer of RPGMaker Trans, received the following threat on Hongfire in 2010 via PM:

"I WILL FINDD YOU SLIT YOUR THROAT AND BURN YOU YOU FUCKING FAGGOT"

I am afraid that I cannot provide a screenshot of this at present because the screenshots I took at the time are probably on my currently broken laptop, and at the time Hongfire had a very low PM limit (I think it still does). If further evidence is required then once I have access to those files I can upload the screenshot. I'm not 100% certain on the wording either, but the general gist of the message is correct.

The matter at hand was that I was asking people to use the most up-to-date version of RPGMaker Trans (this was before I added a check that ensured the most current version was being used). This was due to a bug which I had fixed, but due to people not updating RPGMaker Trans it was still being encountered. I am not sure if the threat was due to the way in which I asked, or me accidentally releasing buggy software.

There are a large number of people on the Internet for whom there doesn't need to be a good reason to start threatening others. I do not know if this is something that has happened for developers of H-games - I hope not. However, I would be surprised if it doesn't happen at some point, given the nature of the internet.

But regardless of the reason in my case: threats are never justified. Even if there is a reason, how would the threat of harming the developer help the problem? That is the sentiment that I tried to express in my original post.

Incidentally, for anyone wondering, that problem has been dealt with years ago. It was referred to a mod, and the user banned.

 

[Froggus]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

Hgame makers are adults, capable and intelligent enough to make a game. Isn't it condescending to assume that they can't figure out that they can contact the mods if they're harassed here?

 

[dood]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

No You're not rude , probably
Coz I do also think so from the beginning
We are on same boat then , lol

From the very start of reading the thread
I already have a certain hunch
Not again.......

Yeah this thread doesn't need to be on the hentai games thread... like honestly it shouldn't be here at all. I'm gonna stop commenting here because really it should go without saying that illegal activities are illegal.

Like the point of a thread is to have a discussion but there's no real discussion to be had here. No one wants to say that death threats are okay and should be allowed and sent by everyone (because obviously that's stupid). No one honestly believes that death threats are actually credible 99% of the time and that people are in danger of being hurt. And finally no one wants to pretend that death threats are a serious and integral part of hentai game development (because it isn't). So really what is there to say? I agree?

Well no duh? But lets be fair and host a poll or something. The question should be "do you think death threats are okay" and if even one person votes yes and means it, then this thread will have been worthwhile from an educationary standpoint... assuming someone that dumb would even bother reading this thread and understanding why death threats are bad. I didn't know we needed PSA's on an adult forum .

 

[erobotan]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

While I'm not going to respond to most of your comment because it's obvious I'm not going to change your opinion, on the subject of me doing 'libel' I draw your attention to the following definition of persecution: "The act or practice of persecuting on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs that differ from those of the persecutor." (Source:

You must be registered to see the links

)

Given the fact that the Gamergate movement has made threats to Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian (source:

You must be registered to see the links

because I'm being lazy, other sources exist, including the actual death/rape threats made) over a sustained period of time, primarily on the basis that the members of the Gamergate movement believe that the critism that Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian make of the representation of women in videogames is unfair, I believe it is a factual statement to say "The Gamergate movement has persecuted Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian".

You should not use Anita or Zoe as a source lol, people caught them lying to often.

And wikipedia is a terrible source for left vs right discussion because their mod are biased left wingers. I read their gamergate article & I can feel the anger & a deep contempt in the writing's tone. Shouldn't they be neutral? Wikipedia is kinda like ensiklopedia dramatica now, except it insist that it's credible lol

 

[habisain]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

Ergh, citing wiki was a mistake because it leaves open that avenue of attack (even though in this case, the Wiki entry seems to be pretty accurate). In any case, how about Ars Technica (

You must be registered to see the links

)? They do good journalism. The linked article was triggered by Zoe Quinn posting screenshots of 4-chan, which caused some of the tech journalist sites to look at the logs released by 4-chan (so removing Zoe as a source); unsurprisingly, these showed up quite a number of threats.

I'd also point out that I didn't use either of those two as a source, but I was citing Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian as examples where threats made online have had a material impact on peoples lives - there are events which have been cancelled due to threats made in publicly accessible online places. It would be fair to say that I agree with a number of the points that they have made, but also I do also disagree with some as well, and I am by no means saying that these people are saints. Just that a) threats made online can have effects to real people and b) that I do not think anyone deserves this kind of threatening behaviour, regardless of belief.

 

[Larcx]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

@dood

Actually...... from the very start I post in this thread. I already have a hunch
I think this entire thread is beetween Lila and HentaiWriter
The continuation of the previous "Locked Thread"
Lila is curious , dissapoint , because HW is gone
Not updating his project game anymore
And have wrong impression that HW is being threats
Since HW himself say that he got no threats in ULMF

So this thread is empty
Just go straight to the point and be a man will You?
Or should I ask HW for You?

HW , Where are You? Are You still alive? What happen to Your game?
Or probably something like , When Your Demo game will out?
That probably the thing He want to ask

Quite ironic that there is actually some people who really got threat
And then saw this thread , and then it happen.......

And yeah.. I too should stop commenting / read this thread

So , IMO
Everyone here is fighting for some stupid reason
Just becoz someone is unpatient , wanting a Demo for a certain Game

Sorry for bad English , I rarely type this much of words

lol

 

[silentone]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

In any case, how about Ars Technica (

You must be registered to see the links

They do good journalism.

For your benefit I'm going to point out that an article that is written in a heavily editorialized style (as in the views expressed seem to reflect the culture of the "publication") with little to no discussion of one side or another is probably an opinion piece. I've never read an "news" article in the NYT, the WSJ, or USA Today that had that style of "journalism." It's highly confrontational and cannot be taken at face value.

Knowing how to use sources to synthesize knowledge from information first requires knowing which sources you can actually use.

Also, this is hardly hentai games. Maybe a mod can move the thread.

 

[habisain]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

For your benefit I'm going to point out that an article that is written in a heavily editorialized style (as in the views expressed seem to reflect the culture of the "publication") with little to no discussion of one side or another is probably an opinion piece. I've never read an "news" article in the NYT, the WSJ, or USA Today that had that style of "journalism." It's highly confrontational and cannot be taken at face value.

Knowing how to use sources to synthesize knowledge from information first requires knowing which sources you can actually use.

That maybe so, but they also publish their sources (hence 'good journalism', which necessarily involves publishing a narrative and not just a factual account of events). The transcript of the 4chan channel in question is freely available, so people are capable of looking at it and making up their own mind. I have - there's a fair amount of neutral stuff in their as, in honest, but also a lot of threats, both direct and indirect. I didn't think it was worth linking to the log as well - the writeup is accurate in highlighting the fact that threats were made, which was the thrust of my point - but a link here nonetheless:

You must be registered to see the links

(WARNING: Big text file. May hang a browser)

And as far as this not being relevant for hentai games, probably.. so I'll shut up on this subject now. (Also have work to do, which may be a bigger issue).

 

[rea_jak]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

So are Threats actually a factor or not? Lila has yet to provide any examples or point out anyone in particular who has received any threats...so its not clear as to why this thread has been posted.

This appears to be a preemptive PSA without any cause to justify what is essentially a statement of the obvious.

 

[super_slicer]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

Alright kiddos here's the deal: Lila can be a bit naive, to the point of being annoying (sorry hun it's true), but she means well and just wants everyone to get along. I do get tired of it sometimes, but I can respect her intent.

We should all know by now to take threats of violence with a pretty big grain of salt unless the perpetrator is close to your physical location, while taking into account there ARE people that can track you physical location through the internet. We should also know that it's not okay to threaten people with physical violence, no matter the medium that you choose to do so, plus it's a pretty good indicator that you are a moron.

Do we really need this thread? Probably not, but I don't see the harm in leaving it either. It should probably be moved, however.

Lastly:
Censuur, if the only way you can someone can alleviate frustrations is to threaten people, it's probably time to GROW THE FUCK UP. It seldom matters why someone commits a crime, and the only legal difference between a "credible" threat and one that is not, is whether the governing body feels that the resources spent addressing it are worthwhile.

habisain, why the hell would you use THAT situation as an example? It's like trying to diffuse a bomb with a fire-cracker, please do better next time.

 

[alias34]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

I think we should just differentiate between threats and simply blowing off steam.

If someone tells you to go fuck yourself, boohoo its the internet. You should be used to it by now. This is venting, it might even be justified sometimes.
If someone ACTUALLY threatens you? Contact a moderator. I trust that they can see the difference between a heated argument and an edgy death threat.
If the guy is being evidentally serious and you're seriously concerned? Contact the authorities, they'll take over from then on.

Telling people to "stop threatening others" isn't going to do shit. In fact I believe you just gave a lot of trolls ammunition.
Just be discreet about the situation and don't make a fuss about it. Escalating the situation only incentivises more threats, since the first clearly got a reaction out of you.

And PLEASE don't instrumentalize your victim-status.

 

[erobotan]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

i agree with super_slicer, I don't mind with this threat thread because it's fun. Probably need to be moved to proper location but beside that I don't see anything wrong with it.

people almost never act on death threat .. unless you insult a certain peaceful religion with rabid followers. So since i believe there is no such thing that involve those people the worst this dev can get is doxxing which is very popular lately.

That maybe so, but they also publish their sources (hence 'good journalism', which necessarily involves publishing a narrative and not just a factual account of events). The transcript of the 4chan channel in question is freely available, so people are capable of looking at it and making up their own mind. I have - there's a fair amount of neutral stuff in their as, in honest, but also a lot of threats, both direct and indirect. I didn't think it was worth linking to the log as well - the writeup is accurate in highlighting the fact that threats were made, which was the thrust of my point - but a link here nonetheless:

You must be registered to see the links

(WARNING: Big text file. May hang a browser)

And as far as this not being relevant for hentai games, probably.. so I'll shut up on this subject now. (Also have work to do, which may be a bigger issue).

Dunno, i can't trust an SJW blog .. they've been known not only for lying but also making up false facts as long as it can support their agenda ... like their recent UN report ... if you keep making up stuff, at some point people will not trust you anymore no matter what you say.

I'm really surprised we have a feminist & SJW supporter here ... since feminist seems to think that porn is evil

 

[habisain]

Re: Apparently this is a factor: Threats

@erobotan: Ars Technica ain't a SJW blog - it's a tech news site, and a respectable one at that. It's been around for 16 years (well before SJW was a thing) and broken a lot of major tech stories, so they should get some respect for that. For evidence that they're equally capable of not being on the feminists side, see their coverage of the Ellen Pao case, where they did effectively report that she did not have a shred of evidence that she was discriminated against (instead her employer, KP, asserted that she was not promoted due to not being an effective communicator. Ars Technica later covered Ellen Pao resigning from her leadership of Reddit for... ineffective communication.) I'd also not characterize myself as a feminist, because I dislike the divisive nature of the movement and question if it's going to achieve anything in the near-to-long term future. I'm much more in the humanist camp.

@super_slicer: In hindsight, probably. As I've said, I just picked an example where threats made online had had an effect in real life, and that was the first one that sprung to mind due to the amount of media coverage it had - I didn't mean to insinuate that either of them was right or wrong on any of the issues that they campaign on, just that they have been threatened and that it made an impact on them. But, well, hindsight...