[Nutaku] Angelic Saga

[freeko]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

The only use for Fizzle is to strengthen another one of your cards when you use it to level it up. Possibly it could be used as mana, but that would involve actually wasting a slot in your deck that could be used by literally any other card in the game. That other card would be an improvement over Fizzle no matter what card it actually was.

From a strictly card value standpoint, Fizzle has none. You could literally do anything else in the game that is more productive than playing a blank card. Why "bluff" something when you could do a productive thing instead. The AI does not hide when it plays a Fizzle at all, because its the third turn and a 6 cost girl got played along with a trap card. Gee I wonder what that trap might be?

It is clearly Invitation to Hell right? (That costs 7 and could not possibly have been played, for those who do not see the obvious level of sarcasm.) So I should play around that all game long. Nope, just trigger it with something and move on.

 

[Eab1990]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

Yeah, you clearly haven't played in a tourney match, when people in lategame have 15+ mana and drop facedowns and traps all over the place, making it increasingly difficult to count mana.

I was purely defensive in my first match because my opponent had a level 70 Nina and at least two traps down at all times. If I had the means to counterattack, I might've been able to overpower their Nina. But if they had three traps, with one of them being Fizzle? My chances would've gotten that much worse, since I wouldn't know when to use my weak attackers and when to use my stronger ones, assuming I should've used any of them to begin with.

 

[freeko]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

You shouldnt care how many trap cards they have in play. By that level of thinking you would never attack because there are trap cards down.. oh no!

In the situation you describe, Fizzle would be the best possible situation for you. Again, literally any other card would be better than Fizzle in that situation from your opponents standpoint. Weakness? Oops thats 300 AP out the window that you were probably counting on to be able to kill the Nina. That probably alone just wrecked you because not only did you throw away your first attacker, but Nina is gonna crack back on whatever you wanted the second attacker to be and kill it as well. You just gave away 2 cards for a weakness and the opponent still has the board control of the game.

The easiest way to explain it is card equity, I dont mind trading a weaker card for a better card by ramrodding two of my weaker cards into a stronger card to keep a level of board position advantage. I trade 1 for 1 on cards and my card is weaker so big deal. Fizzle just does nothing, so it does not trade with anything and generally will just give you negative equity when it is played as you are almost certainly going to lose whatever it is that is getting attacked to trigger the Fizzle as well.

 

[Eab1990]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

Of course I should care how many trap cards are in play. If the number of traps equal or exceed the number of attackers I have, I could potentially lose all my attackers and be completely open to attack next turn.

If I had two 1k attackers and a 2k attacker, I'd logically use 1k then 2k normally to beat a 2.3k Nina, while leaving the second 1k attacker for whoever else was left. But if we assume the first trap was Weaken, Nina would have 1.7k left. If Prepare for Battle/Forsaken was the second trap, I'd lose my 2k attacker too. Not wanting that, I'd use my second 1k attacker instead. But surprise, it was Fizzle! I lost another 1k attacker for no reason. Of course, if I used my 2k attacker, then yes, the Fizzle would've been wasted. But that's why Fizzle is there. To throw me off. You can't call that useless if I could've fallen for the bluff.

My third tourney match is another good example.

-Opponent has Sniper Ekura and a trap on his field. Since it's early-game, I assume said trap is Weaken, Never Give Up, or Fizzle.
-I have a Marsha on my field. Said Marsha barely has enough attack to beat Ekura, so if the trap is Weaken (and it was), I will lose and be open to attack next turn.
-So I summon a second attacker, Framboise (who also has barely enough attack to beat Ekura on her own), to my field, and wait for next turn, when they both can attack.
-Opponent summons a second trap next turn to prevent me from doing that.
-Unfortunately for him, I drew my Daydreamer Alice next turn. Since I know the second trap is more valuable, I force him to return it to his hand. Based on what he played next turn, said trap was Forcefield of Light.
-If I went ahead with my attack and tried to trade two monsters for two traps, I'd be one monster down and one monster open to attack, while he'd still have his Sniper. Bad news. Instead, I got rid of his more valuable trap with Alice, beat his Sniper, and had board control for the rest of the game.
-But if he played Fizzle along with his other two traps? I could've hit the wrong trap, and the game would've gone exactly the way I was trying to avoid. Or, if I didn't have Alice (or Occult Obliteration), I might be more inclined to wait until I had three attackers, at which point he'd have ample time to build a stronger defense. That's the kind of bluff Fizzle could've destroyed me with.

 

[Emerald_Gladiator]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

Trying to follow the entire argument on Fizzle and failing.

I had Freeko's mentality for a while on Fizzle (and documented in the thread), because it literally does nothing. It's absolutely worthless against the CPU because they attack relentlessly and mindlessly.

On the other hand, I think Eab makes good points--Fizzle's a "free" card, and one of the best things about it is that it doesn't require cost. It can be used as trap bait, and can mind game/psych your opponent out in quite a few ways. One is that it can fool an opponent who counts mana into thinking you've used more than you actually did, allowing you to (for example) play a stronger defensive monster or trap. And obviously, there's the example which Eab uses, which is to bluff and stall for a turn, when your opponent is fearing a more powerful reactive trap. Therefore, against human opponents, it does have use.

That being said, its use is extremely limited/situational and I'd still prefer a better utility card with slightly higher cost (Weakness).

 

[redvision]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

Fizzle would be a lot better if it drew you a card once it was activated. No reason to play something with negative card advantage to bluff.

 

[Eab1990]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

Trying to follow the entire argument on Fizzle and failing.

I had Freeko's mentality for a while on Fizzle (and documented in the thread), because it literally does nothing. It's absolutely worthless against the CPU because they attack relentlessly and mindlessly.

On the other hand, I think Eab makes good points--Fizzle's a "free" card, and one of the best things about it is that it doesn't require cost. It can be used as trap bait, and can mind game/psych your opponent out in quite a few ways. One is that it can fool an opponent who counts mana into thinking you've used more than you actually did, allowing you to (for example) play a stronger defensive monster or trap. And obviously, there's the example which Eab uses, which is to bluff and stall for a turn, when your opponent is fearing a more powerful reactive trap. Therefore, against human opponents, it does have use.

That being said, its use is extremely limited/situational and I'd still prefer a better utility card with slightly higher cost (Weakness).

I do agree that it's worthless against CPUs. And in late-game PVP, if you have the mana to throw down 2-3 traps in a turn, you could probably opt for Weaken instead of Fizzle. But sometimes, not having to spend 2 mana can make a difference. Summon a 2-cost monster. Save some MP for a skill. You never know when it could matter. So I don't agree that Weaken should always be your go-to cheap trap.

Or, as you say, if it's late-game and I play a facedown and a trap, my opponent might anticipate a 7-cost defender w/ 1500 def and an Invitation to Hell, when in reality, I might've placed a 11+ cost defender w/ 2200+ defense and a Fizzle. Could easily result in some slip-ups, like losing their own 11+ cost attacker because they were over 2000+ attack and thought they were safe from Invitation to Hell.

 

[Emerald_Gladiator]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

I do agree that it's worthless against CPUs. And in late-game PVP, if you have the mana to throw down 2-3 traps in a turn, you could probably opt for Weaken instead of Fizzle. But sometimes, not having to spend 2 mana can make a difference. Summon a 2-cost monster. Save some MP for a skill. You never know when it could matter. So I don't agree that Weaken should always be your go-to cheap trap.

Or, as you say, if it's late-game and I play a facedown and a trap, my opponent might anticipate a 7-cost defender w/ 1500 def and an Invitation to Hell, when in reality, I might've placed a 11+ cost defender w/ 2200+ defense and a Fizzle. Could easily result in some slip-ups, like losing their own 11+ cost attacker because they were over 2000+ attack and thought they were safe from Invitation to Hell.

Yeah, your last point is what I was referencing, and I think that's key (encouraging an attack against a superior defender), rather than stalling a turn with a bluff. As for Weaken, it's not my go-to cheap trap, but I'm definitely using it over Fizzle (which I do have).

With all the talk about the Limited Gacha tickets being garbage, I got mine for the 12-day login and with apprehension, I tried it. Got a garbage Rare. That makes TWO garbage rares from the Limited Gacha. I gotta say, I've got decent luck (even in Aigis), but it annoys me that even the Limited Gacha pulls this sort of crap. I do agree with y'all in that this event was a fairly conspicuous cash grab.

 

[redscizor]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

Yeah, your last point is what I was referencing, and I think that's key (encouraging an attack against a superior defender), rather than stalling a turn with a bluff. As for Weaken, it's not my go-to cheap trap, but I'm definitely using it over Fizzle (which I do have).

With all the talk about the Limited Gacha tickets being garbage, I got mine for the 12-day login and with apprehension, I tried it. Got a garbage Rare. That makes TWO garbage rares from the Limited Gacha. I gotta say, I've got decent luck (even in Aigis), but it annoys me that even the Limited Gacha pulls this sort of crap. I do agree with y'all in that this event was a fairly conspicuous cash grab.

Yes, I someone said, same % rare with aigis, we need use 15 pulls +- to find something interesting, only can save our tickets but limited gacha cant save XD
I think this game need similar price with heartstone's booster, 1 booster = $1.5 by 1 rare or more

Maybe this is a h-game, but a MTG's booster is more cheaper

 

[Eab1990]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

I've gotten garbage from my tickets too, but between the premium ticket glitch and my amazing 11-roll, I can't really complain.

They really just need to fix the prices for the premium roll if the rates are going to be this awful.

 

[freeko]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

I got both of the limited gatcha tickets. I got garbage rares from both. One was the water samurai girl rare which would be useful for this event if I did not already have 5 of her in the first place. I think I got a fairly useless trap or spell card the first time around. The 5 mana to draw 2 cards thing that just is not very good imho.

I think getting rares like this if I wasted $100, I would be pissed. I am now of the opinion that the game is just greedy until proven otherwise. Pencil me in for being a perpetually free player.

 

[justin iz here]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

Pencil me in for being a perpetually free player.

I'd never pay money on any nutaku games considering how awful they have all been thus far with the moneygrubbing.

 

[Rawr1125]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

I'd never pay money on any nutaku games considering how awful they have all been thus far with the moneygrubbing.

As someone who's been playing "free to play" mmos(mostly rpgs) for 15+ years, I'd actually consider Nutaku to be around average in that regard.

 

[Eab1990]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

The prices for this game are particularly awful, but I wouldn't exactly call Nutaku money-grubbing either.

LoV gives us lots of login proofs, and the current summer event actually has some decently-priced packages.
Aigis got reduced prices in the form of crystal packages.
Pero... I don't think the prices are the problem with this game, but you get my point.

And event-wise, people seem to be blowing it out of proportion of how P2W this first one actually is. Considering you really only need to clear quest 10 for one Oniwaka, or quest 16 for the second ticket, both of those are well within a F2P player's reach. I'd consider the second (and third) Oniwaka a luxury.

So yeah, my only real problem with the game's P2W aspect thus far is that the gacha rates are downright horrible for how much money they're asking for. They need to drop the price, or I'll simply be content with only buying the first-time rolls of every rotation.

As for Nutaku themselves, they've been slipping in the customer service department as of late, so I would like them to bounce back soon *coughNordlandcough*. I don't know if Aigis fallout has them running around like crazy, but we've been getting a lack of feedback from them lately, so it's worrying, to say the least.

 

[freeko]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

Well, that is what I am mostly getting at. Let's compare Angelic Saga to real world card games.

A typical box of M:tg runs for about $100 (modern masters and other specialty sets are clearly more). That gets you 36 guaranteed rares or mythics with a very slight chance that a pack may in fact contain two rares in the form of an additional foil rare.

Yugioh boxes, the game this most closely represents, vary but are generally $65 when they first release with their value decreasing as time goes on. I think they are 5 card packs now and have 36 packs in a box? Been forever since I touched anything related to yugioh so I am not entirely sure. Either way, even if there are only 24 packs, its still far better than $100 for 10 cards at random like the limited gacha thing is asking for.

I could go on further on how horrible the gatcha is, but this should easily illustrate the point. $100 for literally nothing is just a price I would never pay. I would go so far that people who do pay, are simply murdering money by doing so.

Then again there is also no barrier for entry like there is with the physical card game. So, that almost also illustrates my point that the game loses nothing by giving cards away.

Why is this limited gatcha so expensive with no guarantee behind it that cards of a certain rarity or only part of the new cards will be obtained? It would literally sicken me to no end to have paid such an outrageous price just to get (if these tickets were any indication) 10 rares that I already had multiple wasted copies of.

 

[szarala]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

bleh.. I have to think that if you weren't already lv 90+ by the time the second half started, you won't be able to finish it without stamina boosts

 

[freeko]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

I would rather be level 1. Stamina being restored is a finite number no matter what level you are. You will regenerate 3360 stamina during a week. That would cover stages 11-16 and you would need to get stamina through other means to go further. Either levelling up or through murdering money.

Level 11 cost 500 stamina to complete, level 12 600, level 13 700, level 14 800, and so on. You already need external influence to get through level 16 as just getting to level 15 costs you 2600, and completeing it brings you over the weekly alottment of stamina recovered at 3700 total stamina. If the scale stays consistent, that would mean the final 5 levels would cost 1k, 1.k, 1.2k, 1.3k and 1.4k total stamina to complete. Thats 6k stamina overtop of the 3.9k stamina you already used just to get to stage 16. 10k stamina to complete the second half and get an overcosted and underpowered card(at least in my opinion) is not an investment I would be willing to make.

After about level 50(40? I do not recall real well) you need to basically dump your whole stamina into something twice over to level up. Now that I am near level 70 that exponential xp requirement is around triple. I am level 69, have 98 stamina and need 294 xp to level up. That is exactly 3 times my stamina capacity. It only gets worse the higher up you go in levels I would assume.

So to just power through to the next level, I would need to use my stamina exactly then use 2 full stamina potions. The chances of that happening are exactly NOPE.

 

[Rawr1125]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

I would rather be level 1. Stamina being restored is a finite number no matter what level you are. You will regenerate 3360 stamina during a week. That would cover stages 11-16 and you would need to get stamina through other means to go further. Either levelling up or through murdering money.

Level 11 cost 500 stamina to complete, level 12 600, level 13 700, level 14 800, and so on. You already need external influence to get through level 16 as just getting to level 15 costs you 2600, and completeing it brings you over the weekly alottment of stamina recovered at 3700 total stamina. If the scale stays consistent, that would mean the final 5 levels would cost 1k, 1.k, 1.2k, 1.3k and 1.4k total stamina to complete. Thats 6k stamina overtop of the 3.9k stamina you already used just to get to stage 16. 10k stamina to complete the second half and get an overcosted and underpowered card(at least in my opinion) is not an investment I would be willing to make.

After about level 50(40? I do not recall real well) you need to basically dump your whole stamina into something twice over to level up. Now that I am near level 70 that exponential xp requirement is around triple. I am level 69, have 98 stamina and need 294 xp to level up. That is exactly 3 times my stamina capacity. It only gets worse the higher up you go in levels I would assume.

So to just power through to the next level, I would need to use my stamina exactly then use 2 full stamina potions. The chances of that happening are exactly NOPE.

It gets a lot worse the higher you are also, not sure why everyone wants to be a higher level. At 89 it takes 4 full stamina bars to level for the free refill. Also, this only applies to event exp, since event gives 1:1 stamina to exp, if it were any other map it's be even more stamina/level.

P.S. New story quest this week according to fb.

 

[szarala]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

so yeah.. just hit 90 in the middle of 18-3.. and the full stamina from lv 90 wasn't enough to finish 18-3.. this isn't happening, lol

 

[Seipher]

Re: [Nutaku] Angelic Saga

How exactly are you suppose to get past stage 2 of this event? I mean turn 2 she starts pulling out 1250+ cards and its all down hill.

How do you unlock H Scenes? Do i have to max upgrade cards / max their level?