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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Dungeons Layouts are complete



Now I just have to build the darn things.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Daggerfall's dungeons were notoriously confusing.



Though I do like the 3-dimensional nature of them.
 

YummyTiger

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Re: Renfield

I loved Daggerfall's dungeons. Granted they were confusing, but I enjoyed the challenge. There was absolutely no hand holding. I got my ass kicked more than once, and was creeped out more than once too. Ah, such good memories!
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

I've been rewatching House of Cards.



It gave me some ideas.
What if an RPG had a fully functional council?
Each member would be unique and be a faction unto themselves.
They'd plot, plan, bribe, vote, form and break alliances.

Some would act for the good of the country.
Others only for themselves.
A player character could do quests for them.
Or even win a seat on the council and play politics.

In the Elder Scrolls games the council has just consisted of an empty chamber.
Chancellor Ocato sits around all day humming to himself.
A golden opportunity was missed by not introducing realistic political intrigue.
The closest they came to such a thing was in Skyrim during the war negotiations.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Bit like mount and blade then?
I'm aiming for a mash-up of Mount & Blade + Crusader Kings.
Imagine M&B's realtime combat but with the complex politics of Crusader Kings 2 or one of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms games.
 

stuntcock42

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Re: Renfield

I'm aiming for a mash-up of Mount & Blade + Crusader Kings.
Imagine M&B's realtime combat but with the complex politics of Crusader Kings 2 or one of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms games.
This worries me. Sprawling underground dungeon-maps and simulated political systems don't really tie into your original pitch, nor does it contribute to the engagement of an HRPG. Dungeons (and random combat encounters) are usually filler. They surround the actual content (character development, narrative, sex scenes) and help to modulate pacing, but they shouldn't be your focus.

Complex political systems can provide core engagement if the player character has a clear motive to participate in them (e.g. White Wolf vampire games), or if political machinations drive most of the story (e.g. The Witcher). Such systems might be included in other genres, as a minor "minigame" which the player can mostly ignore if they don't like it (e.g. Civilization, Dwarf Fortress, Mount and Blade).

If your game is all about personal experiences, then the only way to present a complex political narrative is to divide it into dozens of personally-meaningful scenes/missions/conversations, and have each faction be represented by a memorable character (e.g. Dragon Commander, or King of Dragon Pass if you're looking for a low-tech example).

You can't do that. You don't have a writing team, nevermind artists and animators and voice actors. What you're likely to deliver is a halfassed politics sim that the player can't understand or relate to, because they can't actually see any of the "loyalty" numbers. Do you remember "Radiant AI"? It was a cool feature in Oblivion which would allow NPCs to interact with the world in complex ways. They stripped a lot of it out prior to launch because it made the NPCs too interesting. NPCs would often steal from (or kill!) each other in private for inscrutable reasons - which removed content from the world and often blocked important quests.

Focus on the things that make your game interesting, instead of trying to cram in every feature that you like. Your pitch can be "Skyrim plus sex" - that doesn't mean that you're required to implement every feature that was botched in Skyrim.


Mechanics Trump Content
As an indie, you can get away with a game that's short. What your game absolutely must not be is 25 hours of "...meh, it's alright." Polish and scale are the weapons of the AAA world. Indies can't really compete with that, so unless you already have something spectacular or novel to offer, your focus shouldn't be about building more of it. Instead, concentrate your efforts on making that play really stand out.

Too often, I see new indie companies cobble together some baseline functional mechanics and then just start building levels and creating new content - because doing that feels like a game's getting made. It feels like tangible progress. That is the wrong way to go about things.
If you really want to include politics in your game, then you should at least tie it into sex. You're working with similar themes: power, trust, suspicion, betrayal, dominance. If you want to get really fancy then weave magic in as well (e.g. A Song of Ice and Fire, The Witcher).
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

This worries me. Sprawling underground dungeon-maps and simulated political systems don't really tie into your original pitch, nor does it contribute to the engagement of an HRPG. Dungeons (and random combat encounters) are usually filler. They surround the actual content (character development, narrative, sex scenes) and help to modulate pacing, but they shouldn't be your focus.
No need to worry.
The core game, version 1.0, will be very simple with the minimum amount of content to make it engaging.
Many of the updates I do on these forums are things should be viewed as long-term brainstorming.
These aren't features that I'm piling on while continually increasing the workload and pushing back the release date.

Mostly I work on these large, complex systems when the mundane tasks get too tedious and repetitive.
At the moment I'm finishing up the CGs.
But after the initial release I want to keep expanding the world.
Renfield 1.0 will likely just feature the overworld.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Dungeons (and random combat encounters) are usually filler.
This will be no exception.
The gameflow of the original Renfield was simple and effective:

1) Wander the overworld
2) Fight
3) Return to the lair
4) Kick off your shoes and rape your captives
5) Repeat

It proved pretty popular but eventually my playtesters wanted more exploration.
Specifically interiors. So I shit out some random dungeons.
Again the feedback was quite positive.
You didn't NEED to enter the buildings, but it provided some variety.

It taught me that the overworld/underworld dichotomy is very forced.
This article on dungeon design trends was quite interesting:


Dark Souls areas broke the mold of instanced interiors being wholly separate from the main map/overworld.
The outdoor environments weren't distinct in their purpose or spatial relation.
Darkroot Garden, the ramparts of the Undead Burg, the streets of Anor Londo, the courtyard of the castle in the Painted World, etc.

So I'm trying to disabuse myself of the notion that having a ceiling over your head = different game mechanics.
Once I recruit some talented map makers, you'll be able to explore much farther afield into deeper wilderness.
These wilderness areas will provide everything that was previously considered the exclusive domain of dungeons/instances.
Players will have tougher enemies, harsher conditions, better rewards and the feeling of being far from civilization and the succor it provides.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Complex political systems can provide core engagement if the player character has a clear motive to participate in them, or if political machinations drive most of the story. Such systems might be included in other genres, as a minor "minigame" which the player can mostly ignore if they don't like it.
Your degree of involvement is entirely up to you.
If you don't play a politically motivated character then you only care about the wars and feuds inasmuch as they generate mercenary work for you.
Or you can be a loyalist for a particular cause and try to achieve dominance of the faction you support.
A middle ground would be the need to build consensus for a certain reason.

Examples of this last situation:

A) If the civil war in Skyrim is still ongoing during the main quest, you'll have to participate in negotiations between the 2 sides.
B) Being named Hortator and Nerevarine by the Houses and Ashlanders in Morrowind.
C) Gaining support for the Landsmeet in Dragon Age: Origins.

But nobody can force you to care.
You could just get various odd jobs from taverns.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

If your game is all about personal experiences, then the only way to present a complex political narrative is to divide it into dozens of personally-meaningful scenes/missions/conversations, and have each faction be represented by a memorable character.

You can't do that. You don't have a writing team...
RPG storytelling often includes a difficult balancing act.
There's 2 axes along which a game needs to balance:

1) The ego of the player vs the dignity of the world at large.
2) Lack of story vs overabundance of dialog/text.

Concerning 1):

When the world is in crisis, your character is typically the ONLY ONE who can save it.
It's an immutable trope. Nobody evens questions it anymore.
You are plunged into a realm where some prophecy states that you are the last hope of the land.
This happens even if you'd rather pick pockets, explore and just generally derp around.

Furthermore this mantle is placed on you even though you begin as a level 1 nobody and the kingdom is rife
with powerful, experienced warriors who would logically make better candidates.

On top of this, you can actually decide whether the impending doom or threat even arrives in the first place.
If you don't do any part of the main quest in Skyrim then no dragons appear.
If you don't go to Kvatch then no Oblivion portals appear.
If you don't participate in the civil war in Skyrim then Ulfric just beats off to a map of the Holds and never actually deploys his army.

So it's only from a narrative perspective that you are the salvation of the world.
From the standpoint of game mechanics, you are actually the harbinger of doom.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Regarding point 2):

Too many games these days drown you with dialog.
That, and the emphasis on longer and longer cutscenes, is strangling gameplay.
In subsequent playthroughs of many text/speech heavy games, I end up fast forwarding through much of it.
The real story is the narrative you create yourself.

When I was younger, I would talk to every NPC and hang on their every word.
But nowadays I don't really want to learn the background history to YET ANOTHER fantasy/sci-fi universe.
While I think every dev team is wise to flesh out a world before presenting it to the players,
they shouldn't forget that fixed story elements don't stay fresh very long.

Quest-story structure in many games usually breaks down into Main vs. Side.
Then came a surge in procedurally developed or radial quests.
This coincided with the prevalence of MMOs and their (often pitiful) daily quests.
Developers went to the opposite extreme once they realized how players would jump through the same hoop again and again.

MMO questlines had you skipping through a mountain of flavor text until you hit the level cap.
Then the dailies were the only quests with worthy rewards.
And helping the same NPC with the same task once a day for a month would shatter any suspension of disbelief.
With Renfield I plan to turn this paradigm around.

Instead of starting on story-driven quests and then falling back on radials,
you'll find a type of radial quest that suits your play style and do them until a special story-driven quest emerges.
So if you join a particular guild, you need to grind a bit doing random quests until a senior guild member taps you on the shoulder.
This, I feel, is a far more believable approach than the typical setup.

Normally, games have you show up as a complete stranger.
Then after a VERY short initiation phase, you are tasked with some "special" assignment that
for some reason wasn't handed out to anyone ostensibly more important and trustworthy.
A few quests later and OH NOES the old guildmaster is dead or something.

They all agree to let the most junior member (you) take his place. Seems legit.
Rising through the ranks should be possible, but not so easy/quick.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Renfield will have a world that is dynamic, but where change happens gradually.
I think the Dragonborn DLC is a good example of what I have in mind.
On Solstheim more and more people gradually get hypnotized to work on those structures.
Over time it makes more NPCs unavailable until finally the player gets fed up and acts.

The problem with the "Overarching Evils" in games is they are often static.
Take Illidan and Arthas from World of Warcraft for example.
In terms of story, they are meant to represent this impending threat.
But really they just sit there, brooding in the Black temple & Ice Crown Citadel.

Imagine if areas and resources became off-limits because they were under attack.
Using MMOs and examples might be a bit inappropriate because they often benefit from having static worlds.
But a single player game shouldn't have that limitation.
What if the Lich King constantly invaded and gained territory until pushed back?

One of the more popular mods for Oblivion was Kvatch Rebuilt.
After you save it from the invasion, the town would be restored.
But what if you could arrive early and save it from being destroyed in the first place?
What if neglecting the main quest caused cities to be destroyed 1 by 1?
 

YummyTiger

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Re: Renfield

Too many games these days drown you with dialog. That, and the emphasis on longer and longer cutscenes, is strangling gameplay. In subsequent playthroughs of many text/speech heavy games, I end up fast forwarding through much of it. The real story is the narrative you create yourself.

When I was younger, I would talk to every NPC and hang on their every word. But nowadays I don't really want to learn the background history to YET ANOTHER fantasy/sci-fi universe. While I think every dev team is wise to flesh out a world before presenting it to the players, they shouldn't forget that fixed story elements don't stay fresh very long.
See, and I love a good story. I want the context for my h-scenes, and I don't want to have to create it myself (although I often do.) When I finally get my heroine to walk around naked, or she finally gives in and gives that dude a blowjob for a discount, I want it to mean something. When I understand who she is and have the context of her slow willingness to do more and more daring stuff, it is the most erotic. In fact, that is why I still liked Witch Trainer despite it's major flaws (primarily lack of CGs). It still gave me the witty dialogue and context!

I know this is completely my opinion. I just wanted to share it. I like what you are doing here, and am rooting for you. I'm just biased towards a good story... which, considering the drowning the player in dialogue I do in my game, should be no surprise! :D
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

I'm just biased towards a good story... which, considering the drowning the player in dialogue I do in my game, should be no surprise!


It's simply a matter of having too much of a good thing.
Applied too liberally and the dialog and cutscenes stop enhancing the gameplay
and start acting as a barrier between the player and true interactivity.
That's why I plan on making dialog-heavy portions few and far between.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Once the game is on the market the proceeds will go towards a variety of assets.
Especially hair, clothing & face morphs.



These pictures are from a scan of The World of Ice & Fire.
The humans shown in that book's art style are what I am aiming for in Renfield's humanoid characters.
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Chivalry: Medieval Warfare has some of the finest 1st person melee combat of any game in memory.



I wonder if Renfield would benefit from a system of dynamic attacking and blocking.
Or would it make combat too stressful for an RPG which can have long play sessions?
Perhaps it could be toggled on and off. "Arcade Combat" vs "RPG Combat".
 
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KleptoLizard

KleptoLizard

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Re: Renfield

Been playing some Payday 2



How awesome would it be if there was multiplayer like this?
Attack a village, carry off their treasure and kidnap/enslave their people.
In an H-game, it could even include realtime coop gangrape.
 
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