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In today's news...


Cappy

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Re: In today's news...

In Hungary refugees are so angry at their situation, that they're .

Then you get complaining about the lack of TV and air conditioning. There's a video out there somewhere that I couldn't find of relief packages and bags just tossed casually to the side of the road, for MILES, the clean up for it will probably be more unjust work left for the volunteer workers.
 

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Re: In today's news...

To serve muslims food that is not halal is like serving you dog or cat meat. Sure, they shouldn't throw it to the ground, but they shouldn't be expected to violate their religious beliefs.
 

Hopeyouguess62

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To serve muslims food that is not halal is like serving you dog or cat meat. Sure, they shouldn't throw it to the ground, but they shouldn't be expected to violate their religious beliefs.
If anything, I respect them for this. After all, if a person is legitimately starving, they're very unlikely to care if it's dog meat, cat meat, or even a platter of human. Cannibalism is not an unknown practice among the desperate and starving. I can't say whether or not I'd ever reach that point, because thankfully I've never been that hungry.
 

Cappy

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I can perfectly agree with their decision not to eat it, it's the violent entitled reaction that is disgusting to me. If you get offered something out of good will you should fucking thank them even if you don't want it, not get pissed and act like outraged chimps.

Hungaria seems to be the only country with the sense to restrict the migrant crisis at all, and it seems like actually wanting to protect your countries welfare is enough to make you a piece of shit in the media's eyes, as far as the actual migrants are concerned handing them food that hasn't had a priest mumbling words over it is cause enough to shout and spit on the floor.
 

Hopeyouguess62

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If you get offered something out of good will you should fucking thank them even if you don't want it, not get pissed and act like outraged chimps.
That's a fair point. Manners are important for everyone.
In the name of Linemarvel, I actually agreed with Cappy. What is wrong with me? ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR
 
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XSI

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To serve muslims food that is not halal is like serving you dog or cat meat. Sure, they shouldn't throw it to the ground, but they shouldn't be expected to violate their religious beliefs.
Cat or dog meat would be acceptable though, if you're actually a refugee in need of food. Any food will do if you're hungry and trying to keep yourself alive. It wouldn't be enjoyable, but it would be better than starving

In fact, I'm fairly sure that their holy book says it's okay to eat non-halal food if you're in need of food and can't get any. Just as those who are injured, infirm, too young/old, unhealthy or too poor to afford regular meals anyway are allowed to skip the ramadan fasting for the sake of their health

This basically just shows that they're not really in need of food and help, they're just passing through as immigrants looking for more wealth, not as refugees looking for safety.
 
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Cappy

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The worst part about it is that the government's solution isn't to make halaal food for them, it's to just hand them cash. FUCKING RETARDED.
 

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The worst part about it is that the government's solution isn't to make halaal food for them, it's to just hand them cash. FUCKING RETARDED.
That I agree on, that doesn't seem like a good solution. Especially since there might be less savory elements within the refugee camps or asylums.

Which country is doing this, btw?
 

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That I agree on, that doesn't seem like a good solution. Especially since there might be less savory elements within the refugee camps or asylums.

Which country is doing this, btw?
Belgium gives following monetary support that I know of:
  • Money for every child they have (Belgians get exactly the same sum). This is currently under heavy debate since it promotes excessive leeching.
  • Access to welfare for when they don't have a job for example. Basically they all end up here for at least a small period of time. The system is already near a collapse under the current weight
  • Monetary support for asylum seekers. Don't know the details, but I don't think it's a couple of dimes

I heard something about them getting priority on the waiting lists of social welfare housing, but don't know the facts about that. Wouldn't surprise me though.
 
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Crawdaddy

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Ah, well, that's for a number of reasons then, as I was under the impression that this was in precarious base-level situations.

Basically, after UN refugee treaties that have been ratified by all the EU countries, refugees are to be granted certain services that native members of their host country are as well (chiefly health and social services). There are certain reasons for this, but the main reason is that whatever benefits they have in their home country is impossible to make use of, and so they are to a degree compensated.

This also mean that they have some of the same obligations, so refugees who are working tax the same, and so on (of course the level of employment of transitory refugees tend to a lot lower than economic immigrants). I'm not aware of any parts of the treaty/convention that says they are to be given preferential treatmen in housing or the likes, so that might be a specific national policy.

Of course, we could go on arguing on the percentage of actual refugees, but I was just referring to the rules as I've understood them.
Here's a fairly reasonable summary, I think:
 
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XSI

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The housing thing is mainly because they are being housed in old unused prisons and in one case even in an old WW2 internment camp

So they're given that preferential treatment to get them out of those conditions as soon as possible

It makes sense, really. But it still sucks. These people should be getting help in their own region in as good conditions as possible, while ISIS is removed from the region and things stabilise

And while Europe and the US just sort of sit around going "This sucks" and trying to help the ones who show up on the doorstep, Russia and Israel are trying to fix the problem in their own ways

Mostly Russia, really. Israel is more concerned about potential attacks on them than about the whole ISIS thing.


 

super_slicer

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Yeah... the US got a lot of bad press the last time we went after the middle-east. I can certainly see why we'd be a bit hesitant to do it again. Not to mention the expenditure of resources on our end.

Granted ISIS is a big problem, if they're allowed to actually take over a country other extremist whack-jobs will think they can do the same.

I wonder if there will ever be a time when the rest of the world doesn't have to worry about the middle-east?
 

Crawdaddy

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Well, to be fair, the Coalition invasion of Iraq is part of what created the political vacuum that allowed IS to come into existence to begin with.

The problem with IS is not just military: there are underlying political and religious causes. Even if one were to bomb the shit out of them today, a successor organization would probably just pop up tomorrow.

That being said, I certainly have no clear course of action. If I did, I expect I wouldn't be sitting here. :p
 

super_slicer

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Well, to be fair, the Coalition invasion of Iraq is part of what created the political vacuum that allowed IS to come into existence to begin with.

The problem with IS is not just military: there are underlying political and religious causes. Even if one were to bomb the shit out of them today, a successor organization would probably just pop up tomorrow.

That being said, I certainly have no clear course of action. If I did, I expect I wouldn't be sitting here. :p
Well, I really only see two lasting solutions. Neither of which will ever be carried out.

Glass everything from the mediterranean to the himalayas. Cost prohibitive, massive amounts of collateral damage, and I don't think anyone's ever going to be both willing and able to commit genocide on that level.

Or build a wall and only let products through, shooting down any air-craft that try to fly over it. No, I don't care that it's mean or inhumane at this point, I'm tired of the shit, if you can't play nice with the rest of the world you don't get to leave your boarders. I'm looking at you too NK!

OH OH OH! Third solution : Build space-ships and send all the crazies to another planet! My choice: Sol.
 

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At this point, we'd probably have to pick between either ISIS or a military dictator

When the Egyptians were allowed to vote, they voted for the strictest muslim party they had available. Somehow, the people there want this stuff. At least enough to get a majority going. The military ended up stopping that one after a bit though

I'd say the only way to really stabilise the area would be to keep dictators in power and make sure that at least the government isn't getting ready to eradicate everyone not-muslim and kill everyone less extreme than they are for 'heresy', at least until the population is actually ready to have democratic elections
 

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When the Egyptians were allowed to vote, they voted for the strictest muslim party they had available. Somehow, the people there want this stuff. At least enough to get a majority going.
The Muslim Brotherhood managed to mobilize a lot of the lower classes, as they've been doing extensive outreach work; handing out food, funding schools, renovating public areas, etc. They also promised a sack of rice for every vote, I think, or something along those lines.

It might sound ludicrous to us (or perhaps not), but when you're dirt poor and all the other alternatives are doing squat for you, little things like that mean a lot.

The same happens in a lot of Latin-American countries, I recently read a book about how it works in the highlands of Equador. There, the different parties promise jobs in the public sector for prominent party recruiters once they come into powers, or promise various local borough councils to fix roads or repair schools, to gain the public support of council leaders. It's called , and is common in a lot of countries where normal people expect very little from the government. I mean, they all know the politicians are crooked and corrupt as shit, but at least during election times they can get something from them.

The problem was mainly that the Muslim Brotherhood was going to put all sorts of strictly religious stuff into the new constitution, something most of the other parties opposed for various reasons. Part of it was that by giving religious officials more power, they'd undermine the authority of the secular governments, and sharing power is always tricky in nation-building. Others were afraid of losing support from the US, and yet others were afraid that it would scare away foreign investors. And then there were the religious minorities, like the few Shias and the Coptic Christians (and probably others I don't know too much about) that were really not keen on the idea.
 
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Sinfulwolf

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Thing is, ISIS is being fought mostly by Middle Eastern nations and rebel groups. Another possibility for some peace in the middle east is the let the nations there (many made by European nations setting up shop in the days of Empires) fracture into smaller nation states along more natural tribal lines.

The downside to this of course is more external tension between these various nations, but the internal tension that had to be kept down through oppression and military regimes could very well stop.

Ignoring problems and saying "you can't play nice, we're going to lock you in" for something that is partially the fault of our forebears isn't really a true solution. People get through walls. (Looking at the Iron Curtain here. Got enough friends who are the children/grand children of folks escaping Soviet control to know that people find a way if they're determined or desperate enough).

I personally want boots on the ground. Holding back and letting air strikes do the work is a political move trying to appease those that I personally believe don't want to get their country's hands any dirtier. People are afraid of the human cost to their soldiers, or think that putting proper boots on the ground means that we just start plugging random people in the head and bayoneting babies in the sternum. The vast majority of soldiers in NATO countries are not like that (Though, according to a banned user, Portugal is pretty cool with rapists), and putting a human being in place, with proper training, will lead to a lot less collateral damage than just bombing the shit out of that place.

Also, not like I'm suggesting this and sitting back. I'd put my name in to go.
 
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Hentaispider

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Re: In today's news...

People are afraid of the human cost to their soldiers, or think that putting proper boots on the ground means that we just start plugging random people in the head and bayoneting babies in the sternum. The vast majority of soldiers in NATO countries are not like that (Though, according to a banned user, Portugal is pretty cool with rapists), and putting a human being in place, with proper training, will lead to a lot less collateral damage than just bombing the shit out of that place.
I'm pretty sure those are not the most important reasons. Military interventions just haven't had a very good success rate in the middle-east since the turn of the millenium, and they cost a shit-ton of money. The global economy still isn't great, so spending hundreds of billions of dollars of tax-payer money on something that's far from a guaranteed success seems a bit frivolous.
 

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Re: In today's news...

Thing is, ISIS is being fought mostly by Middle Eastern nations and rebel groups. Another possibility for some peace in the middle east is the let the nations there (many made by European nations setting up shop in the days of Empires) fracture into smaller nation states along more natural tribal lines.

The downside to this of course is more external tension between these various nations, but the internal tension that had to be kept down through oppression and military regimes could very well stop.
(Other stuff)
This is a pretty good idea too, the lines on the maps in that region are pretty much drawn based on who owned what at the time, and then with a dictator to keep it all together by military force. No real concern for what the locals thought of it all
One of the problems with this is that it might work for the kurds for example, but there are still a lot of places where muslims and christians both live together in the same area. To put the area under the control of the local tribe or village or whichever could be devastating to the minorities. There needs to be some way to make sure everyone is safe at least


Related news, the US tells Russia to not mess with ISIS because it would make everything worse somehow

The US just seems to want Assad out, since he is a Russian ally, and Russia just wants ISIS out so their ally is safe. Pretty obvious stuff, but really shit for the people in the area to be caught in between this all
 

super_slicer

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Re: In today's news...

I'm pretty sure those are not the most important reasons. Military interventions just haven't had a very good success rate in the middle-east since the turn of the millenium, and they cost a shit-ton of money. The global economy still isn't great, so spending hundreds of billions of dollars of tax-payer money on something that's far from a guaranteed success seems a bit frivolous.
This^.

I have never once thought our troops were over there committing wartime atrocities, no matter how much bullshit the "news" spewed out, as for the collateral damage well, they don't drop daisy-cutters on apartment complexes, they use devices intentionally designed to minimize civilian casualties even though that reduces the likely-hood of eliminating the target.

My true concern with "putting boots on the ground" is as spider stated, the cost of such an endeavor with an unclear outcome. We've seen time and again that occupation works at stabilizing the region, until our troops are brought home and everything turns to shit.

How can we spend so much money, and so many lives on a people, the majority of which seem to 1. only want the "freedom" to persecute individuals that don't do what their faith stipulates or 2. are unwilling to stand against those that want 1?
 
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