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handofdoz

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Re: In today's news...

i think to end this conversation we should agree that a ninja would be able to back stab a Somalian, and a Somalian would be able to back stab him back. backstabbing is not a true test of skill.

a true test of skill would depend on who was more able to deal more damage with equal equipment, in which case a ninja would beat a pirate, so long as he knew how to use guns, but again the pirate requires less time and effort to make an effective soldier, while a ninja takes a shit load more time.

so ninja>pirate in a 1-1, but for every ninja you can get you can have about 10 pirates and 10 pirates>1 ninja.
 

Pheonix Alugere

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Re: In today's news...

Or, in translation, the pirates will zerg rush your base because your ninja require additional pylons.
 

Incubus

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First of all, they are assassins, not warriors. They don't train for strength and direct combat as much as indirect combat and stealth work. If you want a warrior, grab a samurai.

Also, if you think every ninja knows all of those... yeah... We won't go into your mental capabilities

That's like saying every soldier knows how to:
Use explosives
Drive a Jeep
Drive a tank
Use any type of firearm ever invented
Excel in melee combat
Pilot an aircraft
Pilot anything that floats
Parachute
Perform first aid
Lead an army


I mean, really, they specialize.

I doubt anyone in a ninja organization actually knows more than 2-3 of those at any high level of skill unless they are old enough to no longer be useful for much other than teaching or leading.
Uh, dude. You obviously have no idea about actual ninjas and are just making gross assumptions. These guys are not some "Well, I've grown up, I think I'll become an assassin." We're talking raised from birth and trained their whole lives. And while they may have an emphasis on stealth and underhanded tactics, saying they can't fight is a complete load of crock. One of the most famous ninja clans that actually existed, the Fuma, were famous for their cavalry tactics.

Now last time I checked, typically when you're trying to be stealthy, you don't use a horse.

Moving on to your next comment about firearms; Ninjas operated most famously during the Sengoku period in Japan.Which just happens to be when firearms were really taking off there. So they're quite aware of what firearms are. There's also the matter of the inherent inaccuracy of the typical firearms you get from the classical pirate age, as well as the reloading problems.

You're trumpeting the power of these firearms far too well considering their inherent problems and weaknesses. Problems and weaknesses the ninja will be aware of because the existence of early firearms is not beyond their knowledge. Problems and weaknesses that can be exploited through their proper training in tactics and strategy. It is important to remember that flintlock rifles and the like are not the same as modern firearms and there's a reason infantry of the line all had bayonets sticking out of their guns.
 

handofdoz

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Re: In today's news...

Uh, dude. You obviously have no idea about actual ninjas and are just making gross assumptions. These guys are not some "Well, I've grown up, I think I'll become an assassin." We're talking raised from birth and trained their whole lives. And while they may have an emphasis on stealth and underhanded tactics, saying they can't fight is a complete load of crock. One of the most famous ninja clans that actually existed, the Fuma, were famous for their cavalry tactics.

Now last time I checked, typically when you're trying to be stealthy, you don't use a horse.

Moving on to your next comment about firearms; Ninjas operated most famously during the Sengoku period in Japan.Which just happens to be when firearms were really taking off there. So they're quite aware of what firearms are. There's also the matter of the inherent inaccuracy of the typical firearms you get from the classical pirate age, as well as the reloading problems.

You're trumpeting the power of these firearms far too well considering their inherent problems and weaknesses. Problems and weaknesses the ninja will be aware of because the existence of early firearms is not beyond their knowledge. Problems and weaknesses that can be exploited through their proper training in tactics and strategy. It is important to remember that flintlock rifles and the like are not the same as modern firearms and there's a reason infantry of the line all had bayonets sticking out of their guns.
1 if a ninja is famous he fucked up, no one should be able to tell how the assassination happened or who did it.

2 my point of a 10-1 ratio of pirates to ninjas still stands, how many ninjas do you know of?

3 i understand that ninjas are better soldiers than pirates, but there not super human, and explosions fix everything.

4 i never said that ninjas couldn't fight, and i do know some things about ninjas. for one thing a ninja vs a spartan in a 1-1 the spartan would win. its on spike tv's deadliest warrior, and its actually an interesting show.
 

Incubus

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Re: In today's news...

1 if a ninja is famous he fucked up, no one should be able to tell how the assassination happened or who did it.
Congratulations. You just completely missed my point by continuing to cling to your own inaccurate idea of what a ninja is.

2 my point of a 10-1 ratio of pirates to ninjas still stands, how many ninjas do you know of?
Yes, ninjas were always smaller in number. But then, so were pirate crews, because they're undisciplined and don't get along well. They need a strong leader to scare the shit out of them enough to get them to work together, and one strong leader can only keep so many in line. Add more strong leaders you say? Then you've got the people leading the men not getting along with one another, which is a recipe for disaster.

It's the same formula that meant the Romans could beat the Gauls and other barbarians; disciplined force vs undisciplined force. By using superior tactics and being able to fight as a cohesive unit, a small force can defeat a much larger foe.

3 i understand that ninjas are better soldiers than pirates, but there not super human, and explosions fix everything.
Once again, you're not reading my earlier posts. I believe I already did a piece on the inherent inaccuracy and unreliability of the firearms of the day. They basically had to volley fire to do anything practically effective. Cannons are in theory more dangerous, but it takes a very long time to reload them; at least several minutes, which means unless they time their shots very well they won't be particularly effective. A round shot from a long distance is dodge-able; you can see it bouncing along the ground. A round shot up close will hit everything in its path, but realistically you want grape or canister shot in that situation to turn the cannon into a giant shotgun. And, of course, and most importantly, cannons rely on the attack coming from the direction the cannons are facing, otherwise by the time they're repositioned it's just as likely to be too late.

Are we finished with using gunpowder as an excuse yet?

4 i never said that ninjas couldn't fight, and i do know some things about ninjas. for one thing a ninja vs a spartan in a 1-1 the spartan would win. its on spike tv's deadliest warrior, and its actually an interesting show.
...

Alright, yes, the Spartans are trained from birth to fight..

But... their primary fighting style is a phalanx, something that relies upon numbers, AND being attacked from the front. (Something that wasn't hard to do in Greece, thanks to the local terrain).

An individual Spartan is certainly not useless without his phalanx; he knows how to use his weapons. But he's also a warrior of antiquity, he's completely out of date with the kinds of tricks the ninja could pull. Smoke bombs, flash powder and other small explosives would likely completely overawe him, how one does fight against a creature of the gods?

I protests that in this hypothetical scenario, the Spartan really doesn't have much of a chance as he has no idea what he's dealing with. To cite a historical likeness, the Spanish conquest of South America.
 

Pheonix Alugere

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Uh, dude. You obviously have no idea about actual ninjas and are just making gross assumptions. These guys are not some "Well, I've grown up, I think I'll become an assassin." We're talking raised from birth and trained their whole lives. And while they may have an emphasis on stealth and underhanded tactics, saying they can't fight is a complete load of crock. One of the most famous ninja clans that actually existed, the Fuma, were famous for their cavalry tactics.

Now last time I checked, typically when you're trying to be stealthy, you don't use a horse.

Moving on to your next comment about firearms; Ninjas operated most famously during the Sengoku period in Japan.Which just happens to be when firearms were really taking off there. So they're quite aware of what firearms are. There's also the matter of the inherent inaccuracy of the typical firearms you get from the classical pirate age, as well as the reloading problems.

You're trumpeting the power of these firearms far too well considering their inherent problems and weaknesses. Problems and weaknesses the ninja will be aware of because the existence of early firearms is not beyond their knowledge. Problems and weaknesses that can be exploited through their proper training in tactics and strategy. It is important to remember that flintlock rifles and the like are not the same as modern firearms and there's a reason infantry of the line all had bayonets sticking out of their guns.
Even if you trained from birth, you will still only be a master of a few disciplines. Most likely any given ninja will be a master of 1 type of weapon, and only average in the other styles simply because being a master at one is better than not being a master of any.

Also, as for what you can do with 18th century firearms, the most famous pirate of all time ran around with several loaded pistols hanging about his body along with lit, slow-burning fuses in his beard. Reloading doesn't have to be that problematic.

As another note, some firearms were used as close ranged weapons as well.

1 last thing: where are you getting the cavalry tactics from? It's been damn near impossible for me to find the Fuma clan or Fuma Ryu using google and the only stuff I can find is either an unsourced wikipedia page and pages that copy paste from wikipedia.
 

Incubus

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Re: In today's news...

Even if you trained from birth, you will still only be a master of a few disciplines. Most likely any given ninja will be a master of 1 type of weapon, and only average in the other styles simply because being a master at one is better than not being a master of any.
Okay, so they're only a master of one weapon, with limited training in the others. I think I've still quite successfully proved they were warriors and not just stealth assassins regardless.

Also, as for what you can do with 18th century firearms, the most famous pirate of all time ran around with several loaded pistols hanging about his body along with lit, slow-burning fuses in his beard. Reloading doesn't have to be that problematic.
Cool story bro, we've got one scary pirate who can fire off several incredibly inaccurate pistols that are really only usable reliably just outside of the range of close combat. That'll turn the tides of the fight, sure.

As another note, some firearms were used as close ranged weapons as well.
That's great. So basically, they've got the killing power of any other weapon, really. So where's this magical gunpowder advantage?

1 last thing: where are you getting the cavalry tactics from? It's been damn near impossible for me to find the Fuma clan or Fuma Ryu using google and the only stuff I can find is either an unsourced wikipedia page and pages that copy paste from wikipedia.
Alright, so I don't have a source for that one. Considering you haven't sourced anything so far, I don't really think you can attack me through that avenue. Regardless, that was only used to further the point that these guys were warriors and could actually fight in ways that aren't "Sneak into enemy camp, stab person in sleep".
 

DeMatt

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Re: In today's news...

(big long argument snipped)
Alright, so ninja versus pirate isn't an easy call. Both of 'em would lose to a tentacle monster anyways - the ninja because he was too quick to jump at it, the pirate because he spent six months at sea and ANYTHING would look good by then.
 

Pheonix Alugere

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Re: In today's news...

Aye they could, but it was still more about the element of surprise.

Also, the benefit of gunpowder is that you can't block or dodge it.

As for the warrior thing, I think it depends on your definition of warrior. My definition is closer to soldier while yours seems to be anything that is trained with a weapon.
 

Incubus

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Re: In today's news...

As for the warrior thing, I think it depends on your definition of warrior. My definition is closer to soldier while yours seems to be anything that is trained with a weapon.
0.o...

0.o...

I'm sorry, what? No, I give up. I'm not going to further argue the point, because I don't think anything is going to get through to you. It's like you only read what you want to read.

Also, the benefit of gunpowder is that you can't block or dodge it.
It takes that level of close quarters fighting for a shot to be able to penetrate plate armour; not that a ninja would be wearing such armour. So sure, it's hard to dodge or bloc a flintlock pistol. A flintlock pistol is also very hard to block with, and it's very hard to aim if someone's already on you with a blade drawn.

You're failing to acknowledge how these things were traditionally used. You fire off one shot, in hopes of injuring your opponent, before closing in with your sword. It was a lucky shot fired off in hopes of giving you an advantage for the real fight, they were not a reliable weapon.
 

Wonderboy

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Re: In today's news...

Ok, I've now done a lot of research (read the Wikipedia on Ninjas) and I have come to the conclusion that, if we are to choose the pinnacle of the pirate vs. the pinnacle of the ninja, the ninja will assasinate the pirate as he's sitting in his room downloading illegal porn. The only pirate countermeasure would be to wave his rights, and demand the ninja not enter his property.
 

Kusanagi

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Re: In today's news...

TLDR;
-Anything Goes rules: Ninja waits to kill the Pirate while the Pirate's defenses are at their lowest. Ninja wins.
-Straight-up, no tools fight: Could go either way, really. The Ninja has been trained from birth to fight, and the Pirate fights practically every day.
-Fight with tools: All depends on how effectively they use their tools. If the Pirate hits the Ninja with either an explosive or a gunshot, the Ninja's pretty much toast. If the Ninja manages to infect the pirate with poison and then outlast him, the Ninja wins.
-Group fight: This would also depend on whether they use tools or not, but it's still a little more favorable to the Ninjas. Ninjas just have better teamwork and coordination than Pirates do. The Pirates could still wind up winning, but it's not in their favor so much.

This is all just my opinion, based on what I've read over the years.


Of course, no outcome is ever definite in any of these fights. There's always the 'human' factor to consider, in that not everyone thinks the same way. A Ninja could be winning one-on-one, and then decide that he's won, because the Pirate is all but dead, and then the Pirate stabs him in the back. Yeah yeah, "OMG A NINJA WOULD NEVER DO THAT!!11!", well who are you to say a Ninja would never be that cocky? There can be stupid ninjas. They are still human, after all.
 

Sinfulwolf

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Re: In today's news...

war·ri·or
   /ˈwɔriər, ˈwɔryər, ˈwɒriər, ˈwɒryər/ Show Spelled[wawr-ee-er, wawr-yer, wor-ee-er, wor-yer] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person engaged or experienced in warfare; soldier.
2.
a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics.

There we go. Now that, that is out of the way.

I agree with Kusanagi that the human factor will always come into play, but I still think that the majority of the time the ninja will win due to superior tactics, and in waiting for the enemy to return to shore (where if we can play by stereotypes they'll get drunk and disorderly and might possibly be killed by another pirate before the ninja can do anything).

Oh... and never think of the show Deadliest Warrior as reliable. I saw that Spartan vs. Ninja episode, and I don't remember them having the Ninja use stealth. The ninja just ran out of the shadows screaming and attacking the front of an enemy who was at least partially aware of his presence.

The damn show also had Green Beret vs. Spetsnaz... well done dumb asses. Spetsnaz is a Russian catch all term for Special Forces... that's a really wide variety of people for a very specific American Special Forces guy to go against. And don't even get me started on the damn episode with the Taliban. That was fuckin bullshit, utterly and completely.
 

handofdoz

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Re: In today's news...

war·ri·or
   /ˈwɔriər, ˈwɔryər, ˈwɒriər, ˈwɒryər/ Show Spelled[wawr-ee-er, wawr-yer, wor-ee-er, wor-yer] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person engaged or experienced in warfare; soldier.
2.
a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics.

There we go. Now that, that is out of the way.

I agree with Kusanagi that the human factor will always come into play, but I still think that the majority of the time the ninja will win due to superior tactics, and in waiting for the enemy to return to shore (where if we can play by stereotypes they'll get drunk and disorderly and might possibly be killed by another pirate before the ninja can do anything).

Oh... and never think of the show Deadliest Warrior as reliable. I saw that Spartan vs. Ninja episode, and I don't remember them having the Ninja use stealth. The ninja just ran out of the shadows screaming and attacking the front of an enemy who was at least partially aware of his presence.

The damn show also had Green Beret vs. Spetsnaz... well done dumb asses. Spetsnaz is a Russian catch all term for Special Forces... that's a really wide variety of people for a very specific American Special Forces guy to go against. And don't even get me started on the damn episode with the Taliban. That was fuckin bullshit, utterly and completely.
i like your definition of warrior

they test a face to face fight, everyone knows a ninja is a better assassin than a spartan.

no offense meant but the Taliban is pretty much the army that cant shoot straight, and if they weren't using guerrilla tactics, which i don't blame them for using, then they would simply be unable to fight nearly as well as they do.
 

SirOni

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Re: In today's news...

Fuck ninja's and pirates, the real question is; Vikings or Knights?
 

ToxicShock

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Re: In today's news...

On a related note, my roommate can't stop using that deadliest warrior narrator voice for everything, and he continuously describes everything as being armed with "deadly katanas"
 

Unknown Squid

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Re: In today's news...

But it's bullshit that gets viewers.
So is Twilight, The X-factor and Coronation street. Though at least Deadliest warrior is fairly entertaining, even if you have to endure a few face palm moments.

Though I never thought this argument was actually, y'know... argued. Somehow the idea of taking it seriously hadn't occurred to me. Plus I'd always thought of fantasy ninjas before, so the answer seemed obvious.

Whilst reading through this most points I wanted to make have either been said or I've forgotten along the way, but a few things come to mind...

Pirates spent 95% of their time sailing and eating weevils, actual time spent fighting was quite limited. That said, the pirating lifestyle was a dangerous one and they weren't complete fools, there's still a fair bit of planing and tactics involved in correctly seizing a ship. Of course most of that was down to the captain, and the large majority of the crews membership would indeed be the dregs of society.

(Once available) Ninjas used explosives too, as well as planned arson. A ship full of gun powder resting in port is an easy target. Though uncommon for a mission to call on them, (primitive) offensive grenades can be counted among their arsenal too.

Also ninja certainly shouldn't be imagined spending all their time running around in black with conspicuous weaponry. They didn't always rely on shadows to hide. Crowds or even instigated chaos worked well too. As did being secretly employed under your target. Back in their day, for many Japanese lords it wasn't a question of whether you had enemy ninja's working for you, but how many, and who were they really loyal too. It's hard to find a better example of vicious politics than feudal Japan, and where better for something like the concept of the ninja to emerge. The classic exaggerated superhuman image of them came from the fact that people were scared shitless of them.
 

Rule 34

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Re: In today's news...

Fuck ninja's and pirates, the real question is; Vikings or Knights?
Well, seeing how the Swedes and Danes completely fucked up the entirety of Europe in the early Middle Ages I'd put my money on the vikings.
 
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