Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

jk103 said:

Personally, I think any project that's more than 6 months behind schedule should stop accepting Patreon payments until they can get back on track. I think that's perfectly reasonable and fair for everyone involved, since the developer is the one who sets their schedule in the first place. If you're consistently failing to hit a deadline you set for yourself, it's probably time to take a step back and re-evaluate things.

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There is no real schedule. This is not conventional work.

The only thing that matters is whether patrons are satisfied. So nothing matters directly, only indirectly through how patrons feel about it. Being 6 months behind "schedule" is fine is patrons still think the creator is worth the money they're giving him, for instance.

So all that really needs to happen is that patrons who are not satisfied need to drop their pledge, while patrons who are still satisfied should keep their pledges.

The ones who are not satisfied should not feel coerced into keeping their pledge, and the ones who are satisfied should not ever be coerced into dropping theirs by people who are not satisfied. This is a personal decision.

So, you clearly think being late by 6 months is a good enough reason to drop your pledge. Have you done so? The whole point of having small, monthly payments is that you don't lose much if you end up unsatisfied and you can just remove your pledge as soon as you stop being satisfied. I know sometimes you might feel like removing your pledge will make you "lose" all the money you've already put towards the project, but you can always come back later, once the developer is working in a manner that you'd be satisfied with. And if that never happens, then it's best to cut your losses early, rather than late.

To be honest, if people could just use the tools that are available to them, this discussion wouldn't even need to happen. It doesn't matter how much time one should take to move, just like it doesn't matter how much someone should be behind "schedule". Either you're okay with what's going on or you're not, and that's all that matters.



That said, if you feel you're being robbed so strongly, why not contact the creator to get all your previous pledges back? Or perhaps go straight to Patreon to get them back. Patreon does protects the patrons, and if you believe so strongly that this is "wrong"...

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

HentaiWriter said:

The problem inherent with this statement is that it assumes all creators are corrupt and would have no moral qualms with milking people for money indefinitely, and that all backers are sheep with no actual ability to think for themselves (meaning that they would pledge indefinitely even with barely any content coming out).

As this isn't the case, this is actually rarely something that happens.

Patreon staff themselves have told me it's fine to even use Patreon as a platform to sell completed content on directly through pledge tiers, and with the number of large projects being funded on it, I don't think it really breaks the rules.

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I don't mean to say that all creators are corrupt. I don't think ViperV is sitting on piles of money and cackling like a supervillian, but it's been more than a year since the last update to the game, with zero negative impact to his bottom line. Something is obviously fundamentally broken about his workflow, and with Patreon being the way it is, he has no incentive to try and fix it. His income continues to climb month after month, even without releasing a single update to his demo.

If ViperV were a genius and had somehow finished the whole game 6 months, he'd be ~$50k poorer than he is today. That's just plain wrong. Why are we using a platform that punishes efficiency?

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

jk103 said:

I don't mean to say that all creators are corrupt. I don't think ViperV is sitting on piles of money and cackling like a supervillian, but it's been more than a year since the last update to the game, with zero negative impact to his bottom line. Something is obviously fundamentally broken about his workflow, and with Patreon being the way it is, he has no incentive to try and fix it. His income continues to climb month after month, even without releasing a single update to his demo.

If ViperV were a genius and had somehow finished the whole game 6 months, he'd be ~$50k poorer than he is today. That's just plain wrong. Why are we using a platform that punishes efficiency?

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I am no expert but i think i remember another option which goes for each update with the payment. And the creators i saw there, carefully choose when to release updates to make it reasonable. Its not the patron-site itself that is bad but yes its like playing gamble basically with some settings (like monthly paying) which make it even more risky. However every single patron supporter can quit any moment. Not protecting anyone, there might be something fishy indeed

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

HentaiWriter said:

"anti-consumer policy"? Huh? What is this even referencing?

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Oh pls, theres no quality control, no refunds. Straight from Patreon's FAQ:
"What do I do if a creator didn't deliver a reward or stopped posting content?" - their answer is practically: "Yea, it sucks, cancel your pledge or whatever we dont care."

HentaiWriter said:

Boiling down making these games to "drawing boobs" is akin to boiling your job down to "grunt work signing paperwork"; neither is accurate.

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Yea i oversimplified but it still doesnt change anything. On my 24 hour shifts i have about 100 patients under my care, some in life threatening condition - so with all due respect i dont think porn game creators have it that bad when it comes to stress levels.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

Hawk999 said:

Not protecting anyone, there might be something fishy indeed

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hugo77 said:

Oh pls, theres no quality control, no refunds.

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To calm things down, here's a snapshot of what ViperV had to say about refunds a few months ago:

Yeah, Patreon's policies may not include a money-back guarantee, but some creators still offer refunds.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

hugo77 said:

Oh pls, theres no quality control, no refunds. Straight from Patreon's FAQ:
"What do I do if a creator didn't deliver a reward or stopped posting content?" - their answer is practically: "Yea, it sucks, cancel your pledge or whatever we dont care."

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I've personally refunded multiple people, and Patrons can contact Patreon to demand refunds (which are then given to them). Patreon so far has had stellar response times to this kind of stuff, far better than any other sales site I've been on.

hugo77 said:

Yea i oversimplified but it still doesnt change anything. On my 24 hour shifts i have about 100 patients under my care

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I'm gonna have to stop you right there and call this a massive exaggeration or twisting of the facts. Unless you're writing to us from the middle of a warzone in the Middle East right now, there's no possible way you literally have 100 patients SOLELY under your care (and even if you were there, there are still going to be nurses, assistants, other doctors, etc. helping out).

In fact, I'd even say you're doing a bad job if you're doing this; 100 patients under the care of a single doctor is guaranteed going to lead to screwups and misdiagnosing of things, as that would only give you 14 minutes to treat, diagnose, and learn about each patient, assuming you don't eat, use the bathroom, or have to leave where you're at, and everyone is in an orderly line. Making statements like yours is what leads people to find it difficult to believe your experiences, honestly.

jk103 said:

If ViperV were a genius and had somehow finished the whole game 6 months, he'd be ~$50k poorer than he is today. That's just plain wrong. Why are we using a platform that punishes efficiency?

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This is assuming he's releasing the game for free, and I'm fairly sure he's selling it. This is also assuming he doesn't go on to make any more games, ever, which I'm fairly sure in that he's going to release more, and if he released DA that fast, it would give him a lot of solid credibility/name recognition among NSFW people, resulting in more people backing the next game.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

HentaiWriter said:

This is assuming he's releasing the game for free, and I'm fairly sure he's selling it. This is also assuming he doesn't go on to make any more games, ever, which I'm fairly sure in that he's going to release more, and if he released DA that fast, it would give him a lot of solid credibility/name recognition among NSFW people, resulting in more people backing the next game.

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These are intangible, theoretical benefits that have nothing to do with Patreon. He could fund his project via Kickstarter or set his account to receive payments per update and he'd get the same, but nearly everyone chooses to take monthly payments because it's easy, guaranteed money with no obligation to actually finish the game in a reasonable time frame.

I'm aware of exactly one developer who managed to fund a full length H-game via Patreon to a successful final release (Hreinn Games), and they saw their funding dip the moment their game was finished. So I'm not at all confident that you're correct in your assertion, and even if you are correct, the benefits you're talking about are pretty meager compared to a guaranteed $9k per month every month.

Patreon rewards developers for putting forth massive, ambitious plans that they have no hope of ever accomplishing, and does almost nothing to reward pragmatic developers who set sensible, achievable goals and release content swiftly and regularly.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

You know what? This whole discussion about ViperV's Patreon's credibility really is not needed.
Look at how "productive" the thread about Breeding Season are...


I'm just gonna wait until ViperV either actually finish the game or had been revealed of his swindling, so one of the side can says to the other:

"Hah, Told Ya!"

Until then, have fun debating folks!

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

To me, the answer and approach is as simple as they come. If you have even a little bit of doubt, do not pledge.

Oh but a new demo... Oh screenshots only for Patrons...

If you're on board, and willing to give 20, 30 or 50 bucks... Go for it.

You cannot be upset if they take their time. You've promised them money, regardless of their progress.

You cannot be upset if they are inactive for months and even scrap the project. You've had access to their feed all this time. Shame on you.

At the end of the day this isn't about a community, a passion or an experience. This is business. They want your money and you want their product. Wait for the product, then give them your money.

Many claim that we cannot make these games without your patronage. Well how did things work before Patreon?

I support developers who charge based on update. Or if I'm willing to take the plunge with someone like Viper V for example, I make one single pledge, the amount of what the game would cost when complete. Kinda like a pre-order on something that isn't guaranteed.

I'm ashamed I posted here.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

Since this thread is going offtopic anyway and theres not much to talk about actual game i might as well respond.

HentaiWriter said:

I'm gonna have to stop you right there and call this a massive exaggeration or twisting of the facts. Unless you're writing to us from the middle of a warzone in the Middle East right now, there's no possible way you literally have 100 patients SOLELY under your care (and even if you were there, there are still going to be nurses, assistants, other doctors, etc. helping out).

In fact, I'd even say you're doing a bad job if you're doing this; 100 patients under the care of a single doctor is guaranteed going to lead to screwups and misdiagnosing of things, as that would only give you 14 minutes to treat, diagnose, and learn about each patient, assuming you don't eat, use the bathroom, or have to leave where you're at, and everyone is in an orderly line. Making statements like yours is what leads people to find it difficult to believe your experiences, honestly.

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Theres no exaggeration unfortunately. Obviously during regular working hours theres a lot more medical personnel but i was specifically talking about shifts when theres 1 doctor + 6 nurses + 6 security guards + some cleaning staff/100 patients. Thats nothing unusual in my country and as far as i know its common in many other European countries as well.
Also you rarely have to "diagnose" during shifts, its mostly about watching after patients and intervening when something requires my attention.
Sorry for offtop

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

jk103 said:

These are intangible, theoretical benefits that have nothing to do with Patreon.

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If I've already got offers for people to buy Future Fragments at launch from multiple companies, I'm fairly sure he's already got the same offers, so it's not intangible or theoretical.

jk103 said:

He could fund his project via Kickstarter

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Can't put hentai projects on Kickstarter.

jk103 said:

everyone chooses to take monthly payments because it's easy, guaranteed money with no obligation to actually finish the game in a reasonable time frame.

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Monthly payments are something easy to understand because it's how practically every other billing system on the planet works. It's not to exploit people or never work on things, etc.

jk103 said:

I'm aware of exactly one developer who managed to fund a full length H-game via Patreon to a successful final release (Hreinn Games), and they saw their funding dip the moment their game was finished.

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We finished Magic Matchup through Patreon, funding for the game has continued on, 7 months and going, and in Itch.io sales, we've made over $5,600 from that alone, despite it being also available on Patreon too.

Anthophobia, Re:Maid, Overwhored, Blitz Angel Spica, and I'm sure there's others, have all also finished through Patreon.

jk103 said:

The benefits you're talking about are pretty meager compared to a guaranteed $9k per month every month.

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$9k per month vs high 5 figures/low 6 figures in sales by finishing the game PLUS $9k per month while immediately starting up another game, if not more, after the trust being built by successfully completing the first game. I'd personally take the latter, gotta say.

jk103 said:

Patreon rewards developers for putting forth massive, ambitious plans that they have no hope of ever accomplishing, and does almost nothing to reward pragmatic developers who set sensible, achievable goals and release content swiftly and regularly.

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You're right, Patreon doesn't reward them; the Patrons themselves do. Besides a few outliers, the people who are setting sensible, achieveable goals and releasing content are generally getting higher amounts of pledges, and the people who do ambitious plans are generally getting less and/or eventually drop off entirely.

hugo77 said:

1 doctor + 6 nurses + 6 security guards + some cleaning staff/100 patients

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So there's still 6 nurses at least, but yeah, I gotta say that's really uncommon where I live; most hospitals or places would get literally written up or shut down for something like that if there was legitimately 100 patients waiting in a room.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

Okay, to be honest I stopped posting here and in /weg because a lot of people have an ongoing hangover with patreon and how I or other devs do things. Everyone's free to talk about how they hate patreon or whatever, but don't do it here. I think a moderator once warned everyone so I'll let them decide this thread's fate, but this will probably my last post here, so apologies if I beat HentaiWriter for once in post length hehe.

Lately, I exclusively cater to my patrons and no longer to the public (who will pirate and play the game anyway). But if you were once a Patron of mine and wish to get a refund, message me. I can't read all your feelings and with 1k+ patrons, there's no way for me to tell. But you can either ask for a refund or wait, because all your accumulated pledges will be rewarded as soon as the campaign gets a redesign and once the new demo is out.

I already mentioned this before, and if you've been pledging $x for months and accumulated $20+, then you are entitled for the $20 reward. Refunding is easy, I do them by the hundreds every month.


To address some concerns, I am not swimming in money. The campaign did NOT start at $8,000. After taxes, conversion rates, paying outsource, monthly $1,000+ declines, software subscription, food, $350+ monthly electricity, (coal power plants, electrical company monopolization... go figure)

If I wanted to get rich, I should have gone with my buddy doing fuck tons of shitty ios/droid games, or had our previous sponsors fund us to make a game on steam with a 2 year budget.

What's that? YES 2 year budget ranging from $3500 - $7500 a month depending on team size. Because we're making games here. On our case, ANIMATED porn games.

"But xxx dev finished game blah blah" Cute, you mean prefabricated /poser 3D and static drawings slapped on an rpg maker? Amigo, please...

(I have nothing against rpg maker devs. Or the way they do their thing, but to compare the level of work and expecting it to be finished as fast as you can relieve yourself from wanking is simply beyond me.) But I understand, since you're wankers and not devs. (not an insult. I'm a wanker AND a dev.)

I've finished games before and I will finish this game. The campaign and development wobbled because this is the first time I'm doing it thru crowd funding. Before, I am assigned to a team or as always, a one man army.

If I was in a team and a member fucks up, the investor / sponsor sorts it out. I get no drama.

Solo? I take my time. I always take my time. Every leaf of every collision box of everything in the game, I crash and burn just to make it the best I could. And I always strive to be better in the next games I develop.

I know crowd funding gets a lot of drama. Good thing, the patrons don't have any of those shits.

Now as you can tell, the game runs on flash. And Divine Arms, before it was a porn game was supposed to be like my old titles (Witch Hunt, Forbidden Arms) Where it needs 9-14 months to finish. If you're familiar with flash games, you know the type of quality those things have always been. However I tend to go the extra mile despite it being just a flash game. I do the design, code, animation, sfx etc etc. The only thing I don't do is music.

Now, Divine Arms having to start off with web-based flash tier engine, it just won't make the cut. I realized the game needed to be extra special compared to what I do before (Flash games.) And Divine Arms is the perfect game for me to develop and learn for future games you'll wank at.

If I continued to develop in the old environment engine as bad as wageslave programmers would, the game will die and will gimp itself the bigger it gets. So I needed to redo each section of the engine from the ground up to prevent it from happening.

At that time, I was solo, so imagine the workload and all the fans waiting for you to finish everything the next month. Amidst all the pressure, I made mistakes of declaring demo updates. At that time, I still have the habitual mindset of "It's just the usual flash game i do, so I think I can show them minor updates." MY BAD. I have patrons hoping. And this is no longer the same games I do. And ever since, I stopped giving dates. And it would have been horrific to release at that time.


I don't care of your stressful profession, but you can't simply compare whatever you go through with another person you don't know. Their lifestyle, their culture, sanitation options, climate, age, medical conditions, other responsibilities, etc. I see no sense arguing about your profession over a porn game. I think you're more concerned with the illusion of gold we're getting where I tell you, with just the basic breakdown I said above, there are bigger trees you should be barking at if barking is what makes you think you're on the side of justice or to just prove whatever point.


Over the year, I did not just post 2-3 pictures. If you're my patron you'd see a ton of updates and animations. I know I'm slow, but I prefer it as steady than to crash like breeding season. Besides, a chunk of the patreon money goes to Chris Armin, who does fast and excellent animations to catch up with the mishaps of the old animator. If you're no patron, you probably don't know that.

I have patrons who pledged at the $600 tier. talked to them about their designs and are WILLING to wait but was more than happy to support the game that I will DELIVER. And I always deliver whether you believe me or not.

Games take time to do, you ignorant fucks. What more of quality games? So if you don't want to support, then don't. If you want to discourage patrons from pledging, then by all means! You must be doing social justice or whatever. But don't do it here and stop being snows. You know nothing about making games.

Here I am doing my best crafting some awesome stuff here despite the shit 2016 threw at me and all you're concerned with is the money you wish you're making. (Sorry had to say it. And I really wish patreon money is making me rich.)

But you know, you're always free to develop your own games that are probably better than what I can do in less than a year. So, again, by all means, prove me wrong.

But really, there's no need to demonize the people who make games for the perverted. I mean, that kind of encouragement sure speeds up development, right? Bravo! I'm developing games for dicks for their dicks!

Luckily, my patrons are supportive and are nice people. Anyway, I'm out. To those who are netizens of this place and still have faith, I thank you. I promise to deliver. The game is no longer the same game, btw. Tons of improvement. It will feel like a different game in a way.

this long post still did not beat HentaiWriter's... damn.
/jk i love that guy.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

Whew...there's that. All things considered though, this thread is still a good source of publicity for Divine Arms, so I don't think it getting locked by the mods would be beneficial. I remember HentaiWriter saying he had locked his Future Fragments thread himself due to it going in a similar direction, but later he agreed that maybe it wasn't the best thing to do.

Let's just wait for something newsworthy to pop-up again before we start derailing the thread even more.

EDIT: Luckily, a new public update on Patreon just appeared!

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

I think HentaiWriter's speaking truth when he says monthly payments for Patreon has been demonized a little.

Just my two cents here. I feel like a lot of the anger directed at devs who use Patreon is largely because the patrons have no idea what the devs do with the money they receive.

A lot of people think "Oh, the dev didn't release anything for xxx amount of time and he's still taking money for doing nothing month after month!" The assumption here is that the devs are sitting on a pile of money, laughing their way to the bank or something.

But in my experience, even if a dev isn't releasing anything it is not to say they're not working. They might be constantly working on their projects the whole time, and because they're doing that, they still have to pay programmers, animators, artists, etc., even if they haven't released content. Heck, if they work on the game full-time they have to use that money to pay for food, rent, and bills. It takes time for the different assets to be created, compiled and put together before any coherent update can even be presented.

Some devs can push out monthly updates, sure, like Noxian Nights for instance. But these are usually on game design softwares, like Ren'py or RPG Maker. For games crafted from the ground-up like Divine Arms is, it would take way, way more time, and monthly updates is pretty hard to reach. Plus, ViperV mentioned he's offering refunds to disgruntled patrons anyhow, so if you don't want to fund the slow process of game creation from the inception stage onwards, you can get your money back/not pledge?

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

Architect said:

and monthly updates is pretty hard to reach.

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Mainly it's this.
I can't speak from the perspective of a game dev because I'm not a game dev, but I do have a pet project that I thought I could make progress in, and now I turn around and it's suddenly 3 months later and I still have nothing satisfying to share with others even though I've been chipping away at it consistently.

If I had to push something out every week or month (how the fuck do nanowrimo people do it every day for a month ), a lot of it would be dissatisfying to anyone seeing it, but also to me. And that's a real reaction that a lot of people have. It's also kind of a no-win especially for game development, because either good updates are infrequent, or people start getting mad over perceived "lazy" obligatory monthly updates.


While I get that some people are immediately pessimistic about the monthly system (which has definitely been exacerbated by flops like Breeding Season), the per-release mode also doesn't work for everyone because some creators aren't in a position to absorb fluctuating income.

A game I do play offers both instant pay and subscription services that grant the same things, and even though the devs admit that they take a bit more of a loss through the subscription thanks to processing fees, they still prefer people do that because it gives a more accurate view of what they can expect every month. And that kind of worry typically leads to more self-destructive choices that ultimately reduce the quality of the content.

I don't really have a horse in this race because I'm not in a position to spend money in Patreon, being a poor student and all, but if you are in that position and you're mad... just get the refund. Or be more careful about what projects you put money in.

As for how my rambling would apply here, would it be ethical to show old Patron content as public? The entire Patreon system is basically just used as early access anyways, right*?
*I have no idea what I am talking about, feel free to correct me and/or call me a moron

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

To reply to your last point, Patreon content can't be taken off of "Patrons Only" if it has NSFW content (Patreon rules) but the creators could post it elsewhere, sure.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

jk103 said:

These are intangible, theoretical benefits that have nothing to do with Patreon. He could fund his project via Kickstarter or set his account to receive payments per update and he'd get the same, but nearly everyone chooses to take monthly payments because it's easy, guaranteed money with no obligation to actually finish the game in a reasonable time frame.

I'm aware of exactly one developer who managed to fund a full length H-game via Patreon to a successful final release (Hreinn Games), and they saw their funding dip the moment their game was finished. So I'm not at all confident that you're correct in your assertion, and even if you are correct, the benefits you're talking about are pretty meager compared to a guaranteed $9k per month every month.

Patreon rewards developers for putting forth massive, ambitious plans that they have no hope of ever accomplishing, and does almost nothing to reward pragmatic developers who set sensible, achievable goals and release content swiftly and regularly.

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That's because people are picking a platform created to fund people and using it to fund projects.

A never-ending project is fine. Particularly in Patreon. The only thing that matters is that patrons need to be satisfied with what they're getting. Nothing else matters.

Once a game is completed, that should not be the end. Patreon is about the people, not about a project. Some authors can maintain their Patreon income by just starting a new project as soon as the current one ends. Some authors can just keep adding to the same project forever. It's undeniable that changing a project might make a lot of the current patrons unsatisfied, which would lose their pledge, but there's nothing that can be done about that.

hreinngames, for instance, went from RPG Maker games to Visual Novels. I doubt most of their patrons liked that very much. It was too big a change, that's not the sort of thing they were out to support in the first place. So their losses had less to do with beginning a new project and more to do with changing the kind of work they make. They changed their target-audience to one that doesn't include many of their old patrons. I'm sure they'd see a smaller loss if they started a new project that was closer to the old one (RPG Maker, female MC, corruption gameplay, etc).


Anyway, Patreon can work to sell things and projects you have already completed or even to fund projects, but it is not ideal. It'll work, but it won't be perfect. Specially, yes, if using monthly payments, patreon does have other options available which would fit better for those selling things. But it doesn't really matter right now.

If you don't like the way an author is going, just remove your pledge. You're supposed to patron authors you like, not authors you don't.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

Well folks, the creator recently decided that instead of posting a new video update, he would release a test demo on Patreon without the hentai scenes (not yet implemented in the game) so people can play through the stages he has created so far and test the new spells and mechanics. The RAW demo with all the hentai will follow later, after the the new minigame is completed and the scenes are implemented within the game with sound effects, etc.

In the latest post, he said that this demo would be released "mid-March", so cross your fingers and hope that we'll get our hands on this new test demo by then!

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

in the demo version that i am guessing is the public version(i am playing it on newgrounds) i thought if i kept going and clearing crystal after crystal at the end maybe there was a boss fight or a bonus reward(pic/gif different animation who knows) but not only i didnt find anything it even ended with 4 small crystals without a 5th bigger one(near the volcano).In total 30 crystals am i missing something or its just like that.It took me sometime to find the 7th crystal so maybe i am retarted again.

Re: Divine Arms - A magical action-adventure hentai game

tsmaniac said:

*redacted*

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Yeah, all the levels after the tutorial in the old demo are simply fighting arenas, no bosses, etc. to be found yet. That's why it's called a demo after all.

However, optimistically speaking, supporters on his Patreon campaign may have a new version to play before the end of the month(the one I mentioned in my previous post).